This Week in Coverager (May 10-15, 2020)

This week we went deeeep into B2C insurtechs quietly and not so quietly going B2B, including…shocker…hiring agents! Discussed Ladder, Ethos, Root, Prudential, Assurance IQ, Chubb.

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Transcript

Nick
And we're live This Week In Coverager, our weekly format where we go over a lot of the news articles that made it or perhaps didn't make it into Coverager for the week, and we discuss it and argue and debate and all of that. And so Avi & Shefi...Good morning.

Shefi
Good morning, everybody.

Avi
Good morning.

Nick
Morning. So Avi, I'll kick it right over to you. We are in the week of this is May 15th. So the week of May 10th. And I'll kick it over to you what's what's happening This Week in Coverager.

Avi
So definitely this week's biggest story was, I would say a Coverager exclusive Bestow, Ladder, Ethos...well, Ladder we knew that they were working with financial advisors/agents in the past, but Bestow had a job posting, looking for an agency service specialist to help onboard agents among other things. And Ethos, another life insurance startup also apparently is looking to work with agents, looks like they have the platform already in place. A lot, of course clicks, a lot of comments, a lot of shares. I think it's an interesting story. Not because it's like working with agents is a failure. It's not, but when these companies came out to the world, they made an effort to talk about how they want to replace agents and want to give consumers a more convenient alternative. And the reality is that consumers may find Bestow as a flatter as an alternative to agents in the medical exam, although that's not the case, in every case, but it looks like that these companies weren't able to find an alternative to agents themselves and talking about, of course, the distribution standpoint. And personally, and this is my personal opinion. I expect more from a company that raised 100 million, 90 million, 70 million. I want to see something new. I don't want to see you guys with a shiny website and then just years later go in and say, Okay, we're willing to work with agents, if you're an MGA and you're taking a commission already, and now you're bringing someone else that is going to take a commission from you then, where's the business model? So that to me is kind of like, show us something new. You have the technology, you have the talent. No legacy is holding you back. Let's see something different than that, you know, was the big story of the week for us. Yeah, I think

Nick
Shefi, I think it gets to the heart of the matter. I have you hear a lot of technologists who come in and they almost scoff at...Oh, do you know how many times we've heard an industry tell us, our industry is different? But I think this is one of the particular aspects of insurance that makes it different is that no one really wants to buy the product, by that by itself makes it extremely different. It makes the sale extremely hard.

Avi
You have an indifferent consumer, I don't know how often we can repeat that, right? We like to say that insurances are rarely differentiated products sold to a generally indifferent consumer. If you go to sleep with that, and you wake up with that, I think your ability or your willingness to explore areas that will not be futile, will just decrease tremendously. Right. My other takeaway about this story is that people's mindset change, right? Are you looking at these founders, first you have to tell a story. And the thing is they're digital at the core. So if you're digital at the core, and now you're adding humans, I still think that it's probably more efficient than somebody that started with a really big, you know, human capital and then trying to go digital. So I do think that the sequencing here make sense. So they're expanding, to Avi's point, not necessarily a failure, just just a matter of, okay, the storyline is changing. What does this mean? And I think you, you know, we talked about this a little bit, I feel like off off of Coverager off the record, you know, if you're a full stack insurer, you know, what's the return going to be? Is that the best way it's an efficient way for for your capital in terms of deployment. And so we know of other insurers, like Root going to B2B route trying to be a technology company. So everybody's trying to grow in different ways. It has to right now, they had to before but now It's even more pressure.

Nick
Yeah. Yeah, no, I was gonna say, you brought up a really interesting point there because a full stack insurer already has requires a massive amount of capital, just to be full stack. So before they even sell their first policy, you're talking potentially 10s of millions of dollars that are required just to take your first breath, issue your first policy. So at to Avi to add to that, to then go D2C, and take on the entire burden of marketing and selling, closing that sale. I think I think that's part of the biggest disconnect is I think they can do it digitally, that they can do the marketing and they probably have a background. A lot of folks that come in probably have a background where they've been successful with just digital marketing. And that'll you know, that allowed an almost an A to Z transaction where you can generate the lead, walk them through the sales cycle and then close them. There that doesn't happen in insurance, you actually need a little bit of sales once the dollar value goes up to both for both of you, but the amount of investment that's going to be required to be full stack and D2C seems like a burden that's that's too big to handle.

Avi
You know, it's it's an interesting point and you know, there are different takeaways, but to Shefi's point, you mentioned Root. And this is something we said in the past. I say good job for Root because they could also go and say, oh, we're willing to work with agents just like Clearcover said, like, hey, agents, we want you. They didn't want that they didn't want that image. So they went to build a b2b product for different reasons, but a lot of it is to make more money. And this is a very successful company, I would say successful in terms of you know, getting policies on this book, making noise of course, they're still small. But if you look at other compared to other insurance startups, they are well ahead of the pack. But life insurance is a very different product. Jerry Seinfeld said, you know, it's, and I took it for life insurance. Breaking up is like knocking over a coke machine, you can't do it with one push, you have to go back and forth a few times, and then it goes over. And this is the same with life insurance. You've got to nudge people. And that's the beauty of an agent, you got to come and say, Well think about this and that and then there's a lengthy process. And, and by the way, there's a lengthy process, I went to get a quote from Ladder, I think it was for $500,000 or a million. And because I have a family history of heart issues, they said, okay, you need a medical exam. So like, I couldn't get it online. So there was no innovation in that and to say, Hey, we don't need you to, you know, to take your blood like you'll have to pay more. We all get that I understand. So, there's no innovation in the product yet like significant innovation at least, and then the whole concept of Okay, we now need help with distribution and like Shefi said go to sleep with indifferent consumer and rarely differentiated product. also go to sleep with something I've been saying for a while. Insurance companies have no right to be consumer facing brands. It's that simple. You do you you you don't. Did you hear that by the way? No, no. So just me, but but insurance companies have no right to be consumer facing brands.

Nick
It was a State Farm pinging your phone. Yeah, I was like okay, what's going on?

Avi
I got two Ambler alerts today? Yeah, but, but but that's the point. If you can't have a good enough reason to require like, demand that attention from a consumer You can't be at the front, you need to be back, behind the scenes. And that's what insurance companies have been doing for many, many years, I've been kind of waiting. Let the agent give the business and that's it. You're coming in, you want to spend on marketing, Google ads, Facebook ads, TV ads, you're not going to see the return as quick as you hope. And it's definitely not going to be a good return. And it's, you know, from a financial standpoint, and another element that's interesting with Ethos on their website for the agents, they say, Well, if the consumer pays month a month, then we're not giving you the full years commission. Like we're gonna give you a commission month a month as well. If they pay annually, you'll get the full commission. So now they're getting into this world where an agent is saying wait, a second, Transamerica is going to pay me up front, whether the customer pays monthly or yearly. Now Ethos was saying, month by month if you know, so now the agent is making that decision and saying I'm going to go Transamerica because they need the money now. So the Do you want to be in that world? I don't think so.

And how many decisions do the agents now have to make? I feel like every other day I hear of an agency solution proposition out there. Everybody is all of a sudden, it's not all of a sudden Actually, it's been like this for years maybe just heightened because of folks pivoting to other business models to other channels, right. People are targeting agents more.

And by the way agents

that's a populations that's like supposed to lead the diminishing or Yeah, being merged or a lot less agents supposed to be a lot less agents out there.

And I can tell you that.

And the modern consumer, the one that is going to Google, it's not searching for agents. They're not they're simply not doing that. I believe we did some research around it. 2.7% of the most popular search terms around insurance have the word broker or agent in them. So

Nick
I'd be very interested to find out when folks are searching for insurance. Just from my really basic understanding of how Google AdWords work. I believe like the most common searches like cheap auto insurance and car insurance,

Avi
yeah, compare car insurance, cheap car insurance.

Nick
And if

you if those are the folks that are searching for insurance, like the active buyers, that's a bad sign like that that's not a market you want to necessarily get in front of, because they'll leave you if they find something cheaper. Like you really have to be the lowest cost provider of insurance to acquire and keep that. And you probably need to keep them for a while because it's probably pretty expensive to get them.

Avi
And another element what's interesting about it really,

Unknown Speaker
yeah, it's expensive, but it's also as you said, Is this the right customer and when you take this to life insurance Not as many people search to begin with, because it's a product that isn't Top of Mind like you say Geico and progressive on TV all the time. You know, it's a mandatory product, you have to get it. There is a big knowledge gap around life insurance and they still feel like, you know, you go every life insurance website traditionally, you see a picture of a mom, a dad and a baby. Everywhere you go, a mom, a dad and a baby. And then you're saying, Okay, well, if I don't have a baby, or if I don't have a wife, then I probably don't need life insurance yet. Or maybe if I have a wife, but I don't have a baby, then I don't need it. Some people also getting married later and not having as many kids as they used to. And I feel like a lot of companies have invested in these life insurance players from the industry because they do have some backing from the industry. They kind of said, Well, you know what, maybe they'll find a way to talk to millennials. Maybe they'll find a way to get this top of mind. And you know, it's rough. rough road.

Nick
Well, as I was talking to one of my colleagues yesterday, and it was exactly this discussion, so it's just right, right on topic. And we talked about how you know about the life insurance industry. And he asked me, well, what's your life insurance situation neck? And I said, Well, I'm actively looking. And he's like, how old are you? He's like, if it took, you know, what's it taking for you? To finish this? young young professionals aren't interested. Young people are not interested in buying it like, it is a Avi to your point. I think it's a really tough sell. young professionals are not just not buying it, and they're waiting in waiting for that moment where they do have a baby in a house, and they're almost guilted into doing it. And I can tell you from personal experience, that's why I'm updating mine. It was my wife who was like, Hey, what's your life insurance situation.

Avi
It always gets back to the wife.

Oh, yeah, control the purse strings. The same case with me. Yeah,

but you're here. I think that's the conclusion life insurers don't have a right to be consumer facing you say

yeah unless again you offer more and this is the thing like agents are not going to save you if Ethos is hearing this If Ladder is hearing this, if Bestow is hearing this. Agents are not going to save you. You have enough money, enough talent to go and go beyond insurance just like maybe be you know, a money management

company that's already taken.

Unknown Speaker
Yeah, do this something beyond. Because again, if Root needs to be a b2b player, and you see other companies going, you know, expanding vertically then why not a life insurance companies say let's have another revenue stream to offset our very expensive customer acquisition costs. You know, you have to you can't be one dimensional today. If you are one dimensional there you're going to be studying a very long line trying to compete for consumers attention.

Nick
Well I know that I know that there are some life insurers that are. I think john Hancock has a a policy where the life insurance is linked to like smartwatch and your gym membership and some some of those other things. I'm not really seeing that And to me, that's a disappointment it gets. I go back, you know, sometimes you need to sort of simplify the problem. Netscape's first CEO, once said, there's only in the business world there's only two ways to make money. You're either bundling things or unbundling things. And life insurance is completely unbundled stripped bare and it's you're struggling to sell it. And I start I'm as you're saying that Avi I'm thinking well, then the only alternative is to start bundling stuff in...risk management, other services like you have no choice. I think they've tried to do that that's why we there's so many different types of life insurance products: universal, variable they they've sort of tried to do that but that just raises the complexity of the product where you definitively will need a salesperson to explain it and close the deal.

Unknown Speaker
And many options are out there like if Ethos would go tomorrow to Peloton you know, the bike exercise company the lifestyle Yes, anyway. And they would go and say, Look, we want to be your exclusive life insurance provider just like Axa does with football teams in Europe. That's a good audience, an audience that has money that cares about health that probably will get an instant decision online. That's something I would be excited to see it's gonna cost them money but you know, it's better than relying on the money anyways. Exactly. That said, so many things that Again, it's nice to see for example, the whole like walking 10,000 steps and vitality app and SCOR is doing something in the space as well. It's good because for some consumers, I'll give you this as an example. There is a calorie counting app called Lose It. In Boston. I don't count my calories. I'm not a user. But they have, I believe, over 35 million users, out of them 500,000 paid users that pay around $40 a year. Now, the big Vitality, the you know, the one from all over the world. They have, I believe, around 10 million users, maybe 12 million users. Of course, Vitality has way more resources Lose It only raised like $5.5 million dollars. That's it. And 35 million users 500,000 paid users Why not Ethos was like, doing something together with that company, having such an enormous amount of data, what people eat every day, and maybe not making money from selling insurance to them, but maybe being the connector for someone like maybe AIG wants access to the data, maybe SCOR wants access to the data

Avi
technology problem is it's a marketing problem and basically offering the marketing angle you don't have to go all in like Vitality and and while you can not not everybody has the resources that we Vitality so if you're thinking how to compete, there are other options. And the beauty of marketing is that, you know, one you have to be consistent and having your brand out there, but two, you can play around and check what works and what doesn't. And, you know, that's why we're big fans of alternative distribution and where it counts. We'll talk about companies like Lose It or companies like Nanete, which we've mentioned already a few times and they announced another round. This week actually died. You know, actually, you know, there weren't a lot of Breaking news and insurance this week it was kind of slow. But outside of insurance, there's a whole world.

Nick
Yeah. So without beating the dead horse here, um, let's, uh, are there any other particular stories that kind of intrigued you anything off the record?

Avi
We have a lot of off the record. That's the problem. It's off the record.

Nick
Well, just between us then. No, I mean, I guess I guess this This episode will like kind of focus on that, that in the life angle, and I'm just I'm nervous. We're just gonna keep having this conversation. You know, and I'm particularly I don't know, I think the I think the, the, I'm curious. the dividing line seems to be that there's domain expertise on both sides and they can't quite get together to create that market, Shefi. Like, there's obviously people need life insurance...people like technology, how come they can't quite get together? What is I, you know, what is the dividing wall that's preventing them from getting there? I, I just I can't explain it. But it just I think it just goes to show that insurance is just massively complex, much more complex than people from the outside think it is.

Unknown Speaker
You know, I actually think I tell this to Shefi all the time. insurances from a consumer perspective, in my opinion, it's a very simple product. It's about price. Because you don't give people anything else. And we spoke yesterday to an insurance professional. And he you know, just joined an interesting insurance startup that doesn't have an am best rating yet. And he was concerned about Should I join this company like will consumers even buy insurance from a company without an Invest rating and apparently Yeah, a lot of people are buying insurance from them. And insurance is a game of price. It's a game of value, what else can you bring to the table? And if you don't bring anything to the table, then you have a problem. And that's where, you know, we talk about life. At the end of the day, I like what policy genius is doing. Not because I'm saying they are more efficient, or because they are more effective, just because they're taking on, like helping people understand and staying with the consumer with content and in different aspects. So it gives them more of a reason to be like a hub of information and the ability of course, to buy different products. So again, focusing on the technology, focusing on your brand. Yeah, I don't know.

Nick
It is, I mean, in at a very high level, it is easy. It is an easy product. I think it's underneath it in the back office, where the sausage is made...gets much more complex and being able to connect dots to the consumer or allowing the consumer to connect the dots becomes a bit of a problem. Because it's, it's not an exciting product, they don't really want to learn about it, they just kind of want to have the solution available. And if there if the consumer is not willing to do the necessary legwork to understand the difference between product A and product B, it's always gonna come down to price. Yeah, and that's the way it is. And so it is up to us as insurance professionals to make sure that it's like what ways do we need to turn the marketing into a video game to get people excited about it like to get them to understand the difference between a and b and what it is that they're paying, paying for? You know, and I'll tell you, you know, from my career, you know, I I did brokering at Aon and I remember I had a particular account where they had options. They chose Chubb. They chose Chubb every year even when Chubb was raising prices. And it was because they had a really positive claims experience and they just in Chubb has a reputation for paying their claims. Chubb has a reputation for paying for claims they don't necessarily have to pay for. And for that business that was very important. They were willing to pay more to be able to sleep at night. There's not a lot of consumers like that.

Avi
No, not not a lot that I feel like in business. And we saw this with Coverager or when we got coverage. Price wasn't a factor for us. And it's not because we have a lot of money. We don't I can tell you that. But we would when it's a business, you don't want to take any risks. Like for me if you told me car insurance, I think I'm a good driver. Don't worry about it. renter's insurance, I don't cook or bake or anything. Don't worry about it. But when it comes to your business, I totally agree with And we hear great things about job all the time people are saying, oh, the claims and the service and, and

things come on! Chubb, as great as I don't buy into it, I've heard that they've also increased prices after claims. So I think there are always many sides. And that's the thing we're dealing with so many clients, so many preferences, Avi's preference for, you know, small business insurance and his priorities aren't necessarily in line with the with the other person with a different person industry. So if you're just targeting a very niche segment, then that's what you're going to get. And we've seen a lot of that happen in Insurtech. But if you want scale, then you're starting to look left and right. And you know, you need more than that. So I think it's, you may lead with price and oftentimes you lead with price in the commodity area of the business. But in in small, small businesses. That's a different topic. It's so complicated. We have yet to see success stories. I mean, I think has got to the success story next to the success story, or at least getting there but Here are two companies, for instance, that wouldn't offer coverage to us, right. And I thought we were a prototype for them, but we're just we aren't. Right. So small businesses so complex. That really is the issue. So if you want to go digital, think of a commodity product, think of a product that a customer will buy online without needing to talk with an agent. It's not always tied to a premium. Vice versa, you know, if you want to be you know, something else, or where there's room to actually care, or have the product be more meaningful, then it's areas that you can actually have a conversation and explain is for us for Coverager or media liability. Professional Liability is really important. You want to have that conversation. And you know, by the way credit to Coverwallet because Coverwallet was the only one that wanted to have a conversation with us. And it was a specific agent, which by the way left after we got insured right. So that was our relationship with Coverwallet and now It's the relationship is a little bit different than necessarily necessarily good or bad. We don't know. But it just goes to show you where, where an agent does make a difference. Many other agents didn't want to have a conversation beyond. Here's your quote, take it someone actually told me what's the problem if it's around five K, you should you know, it sounds good. But you wouldn't just go into the specifics of what coverage there is no problem five K isn't the problem. The problem is that I want to understand what I'm buying and you can't send me to a contract to read it. Because I won't necessarily know to connect the dots.

So then, you know,

Nick
yeah, that's the problem. Like to me that that's that use case just sort of encapsulates everything that's difficult about selling an insurance policy because here you are, as a motivated buyer that wants to be educated and the industry still doesn't want to educate you. You know, and, and I know I know, there are a lot of agents that are going to be listening this to this, they're gonna do this. They're gonna Avi, they are gonna tweet at us and say, no no, no no no we do that. I believe that but there's so few of them and I think and Coverager are would be the exception most most folks do not want to get do not want to be educated there's just just not you don't make sure I'm covered and give me the cheapest price.

Avi
I think that's it well, you know, Clearcover really did a good job the agent and making it very simple. And we had concerns we are cover cover, Coverwallet, sorry. So Coverwallet it really made an effort want to get sued? Yeah, the agent made a good effort and explained bottom line. If you do this, you're covered. If you do this, you're covered. And they wanted our business. It wasn't I'm sure he didn't make a ton of money out of it. Because you know the amount, but there was another agency that represents Hiscox and the agent was too busy with renewals. So, again, our business was not big enough, which is fine, but you know, I want to go back there's a big story that kind of we may have missed. We didn't talk much about it but this is a you know a different take on what Ethos, Ladder and Bestow is doing and that's Prudential Assuarance IQ. So Assuarance IQ lost this quarter I believe 30 something million 32/33/31 million. They lost last quarter as well. And here is a company...Prudential that thought they discovered the holy grail that Prudential has developed or cracked the code as they said they certainly cracked the code of selling insurance now what caused the actually cracked what they thought they cracked is onboarding commission based agents working from home you know, wanna make a lot of money and this is of course, you know, it's a big problem with financial like Northwestern Mutual Mass mutual a lot of retention problems I believe 90% don't make it the first year. It's hard to work on Commission's especially nowadays, so they bring all these agents and they get, you know, they have to have their headset, they have to have internet. They get all these motivational emails which stopped by the way, because some of them were distasteful.

But

no, it's not working. It's not working because you whoever you bring, whoever is, I would say, naive enough to just buy insurance from the first person that calls them on the phone. That's not a sophisticated customer. That's not the millennial that's maybe someone that's, you know, on disability or getting Social Security. So targeting a very specific demographic and Prudential that's another niche to my mind like view. Prudential will never be able to make this mainstream but not

Yeah, we're gonna feel thought that they bought that this has been set us many times and here's something off the record. They kept on saying we bought that Uber of insurance. I don't know why they necessarily thought that was a good model. But that's a skill that they were hoping to get. And they were hoping to bring agents on board in a way where you're only paying for it's that back to that Win Win model, by the way, which you don't have in the digital world. But the digital world, you have to take a chance. You have a Facebook ad, you have a Google ad, somebody may click somebody getting a commission Ladder is paying just for your commission only on presenting a quote, right? That's, that's a modern player. But back in the old days, you only paid when someone actually gave you a client. That's the agency model and it worked really well again, but are you targeting the millennials? are you targeting confuse teenagers that may have a click, click on a sweepstake and landed on your website. And you know you have the automated phone calling.

And this is a big deal like

we thought we do for that.

Prudential's pride, I believe is not going to let them kind of let the business fail, they're going to try to make it work. And it's not going to work because again, no young, educated person is going to buy final expense product from Lumiko. It's not going to happen. It's very simple. So they're targeting an older demographic that I didn't know how I will be when I will be 70. I don't know if you think about that. Do you think you'll be naive all of a sudden, like, hey, how do I do on my phone? Or how do I do this? Or that? I was

Nick
My wife says I'm naive now!

Avi
Oh, okay. So I hope it you know, I don't know how we will be interesting. Like I see older people and they have sometimes a hard time and I have someone that I worked for that for some reason someone called them and asked for his Medicare number. And he gave the number and he was a very smart, sharp business guy, but for some reason, he thought that it was a good idea to give the number and of course there was fraud. And all that. So it's not going to work. They could be on Instagram, they could be on Twitter, telling agents come work. There's glass door today insurance forums, everybody knows that it doesn't work. So I wonder if they're kind of going to say, well, they should ask for their money back. That's what I think they should do. But if they can't ask for their money back, they should just, you know, take a loss don't invest more. They're bringing in new executives, new people hiring, trying to make this more, and I don't think it's gonna go anywhere.

The funny thing is that they are admitting that they're learning and trying to improve the product. And this is after paying a premium.

Nick
I know, stores like that incredibly frustrate me, because, you know, the industry already has a bad stereotype. This exacerbates it. We're going to bring in a bunch of people that don't know anything about the industry, give them some quick training, throw a bunch of leads at them and then have them go and run and try to sell stuff. The incentives are all wrong. To begin with, and as you're telling the story, I'm like my bloods boiling because it's, I'm thinking of the person that doesn't know very much about insurance and they need the product and they get sold the wrong product. And in the life insurance has a horrible history of this sort of crap where it's like, they just needed a 10 year term policy and they end up getting like this variable universal with like high surrender costs and all this other crap that they throw in and the agents just get paid and paid and paid. The incentives are terrible, and it's the life insurance companies the carrier's themselves are part of the problem. It is one it is one area where I think P&C gets the incentives a little bit better, with a lot, you know, spreading the commission out over time versus one upfront large commission. Which, you know, just produces horrible incentives and oh, that whole story just makes my blood boil.

Avi
Do you think it's because I always had this thought, do you think it's because P and C like auto insurance is regulated, you have to buy it. And there's not much regulation like it's not mandatory around life. And so these companies are trying different tactics, because a lot of them are sleazy salespeople. That's, that's what it is. So I feel like because auto insurance, you have to buy it, you go to the customer say, look, you need to have this anyway. So let's move on. And I'll tell you why you should buy for me versus Why should your

Nick
The regulators have standardized it? Like there's not that much difference between policies, you can't get like an ultra auto you just buy bigger limits, but they've all been like neatly classified by the regulators.

Avi
It's crazy because I always found

out in like the insurance journal Academy,

no, but but you know, Prudential is not a company. I would never think of Prudential doing what a company like assurance aq does never like I really feel like Prudential is targeting More of the wealthier people and they said, Oh, we wanted to buy insurance IQ, because give us access to a larger demographic that may not have the money to buy our products. But again, you could go a little down, you can go to the broke millennials like myself, but you're going way, way down to people that can't even they don't have a credit card. You know, they don't have a credit card, a lot of assurance, like you customers have no credit card. So I feel like something went wrong there. I'm still trying to understand what but no way that Prudential really knew what they were getting into. Because if they did, they would not have paid 2.3 billion plus another earn now that could be 3.5 billion. It's just crazy. And I'm sure there's a lot of pressure and the CEO of assurance IQ, seeing these quarters losing a lot of his key people have been replaced. Some of them are still there, but new Prudential people came in. So I don't know

Nick
how happy he is. But you know, We're really beating this dead horse. So

Avi
you I'll wrap it up for you.

Nick
Well, since the horse since the horse has fallen over, and we're all hitting it with a stick, I'll add one more. I'm doing research on life insurers now. And on they're almost entirely run by accountants. Right? These are like, if you look at their LinkedIn profiles, or you look at their history, they're at one point, they're like Chief Financial Officer. So these are finance people that are running life insurance companies. It just goes to show you like the the one another of the of the big problems in insurance and why we cannot make this gap is you can't rely on your finance guy for innovation. You can't rely on your finance guy to understand technology, their finance guy, I'm sure they're they have super high business acumen for what they're doing running the operation of the company, but to have them bring that market or industry into the next generation. Wrong people, wrong skill sets, very good to run the company very good for quarterly earnings, not good to getting more people to buy younger people to buy the product. I'm going to like keep banging the table. It's like the industry. Someone said we almost need like these leaders to die off so that the young, a younger set of leaders that are more digital savvy can get in those roles, and then things will change.

Avi
Or they can retire. They could retire. Yeah. Well,

Nick
I think we could end up not when they're making $10 million a year.

Avi
Well, maybe they'll come and get some green oranges in Florida.

Nick
Private joke between us. Why don't we end it there?

Avi
That's good.

Nick
Okay, so I don't know if you guys know that. So that I'm sort of settling on this week in coverage, which is a takeoff name from this week in baseball. And so I'm actually reaching out to to see if I can get the music. So at some point for those that are listening, and I'm aging myself if you've ever watched this week in baseball, I hope to be able to finish these podcasts with the music that was finished on this week in baseball. So, for Avi and sheffy, this is this weekend coverage. Have a great weekend. Have a great week. Thank you, guys. Bye, everyone.