This Week in Coverager (7/17/2020)

Avi and Nick discussed:

  • Lemonade getting into the pet insurance arena
  • Insurtechs increasing usage of direct mail

Watch here:




Nick 0:00
And we're live. We're back This Week in Coverager. for the week of July 17. That's early Friday morning, pink shirt Friday as per usual, I'm in the Coverager headquarters podcast headquarters in Naples, Florida. Avi is in the Coverager headquarters in its main headquarters in New York City. What's it like being back in New York?

Avi 0:32
You know, I'm actually back in Queens. I used to live in midtown Manhattan, but then it was time to start a family. So we moved to Forest Hills, but it's great to be back. Very different scene. Everybody here wears a mask so many people outside. But yeah, it's hot. But it's good to be back.

Nick 0:52
Yeah. So Shefi is on assignment. Literally, and I just want to kind of to plug one of my next upcoming podcasts, this is my OWIT might be nice. Wendy sent over to me. So Wendy, thank you. I appreciate it. It's now my favorite mug. It holds a lot of coffee. So I don't I can't drink a 2nd. So I need one big first one, and we're ready to go. So with that said, Avi, week of July 17. Actually, there's more news. So I'm going to kick it over to you. What's the what's the first topic of the day for This Week in Coverager?

Avi 1:34
So not surprising, I think in the dull world of Insurtech Lemonade still stands insurance. I think I think they timed everything together to kind of like really have the momentum with the IPO into pet insurance and because they're kind of under the radar. Not

Nick 1:52
at all. Yes. If they thought that far ahead. Yeah,

Avi 1:55
definitely. So pet insurance, launched a new product. We put the flow out there exactly the same flow as the renters, the chat bot based questionnaire, you answer a few questions you get a price. And I want to talk about two things. Today I want to talk about loyalty. And I want to talk about price. So I am or I was a loyal Pet plan policyholder we had a pet insurance for since Heathcliff our dog was, you know, in this world for over six years. Great insurance provider never had any problems. We actually had claims paid. We were very happy and I actually tweeted that I said how happy I am and that I will stick with that plan. I went in and I got a quote from Lemonades. It was almost 50% off and I switched and I feel bad. I really feel bad, but it was $27 versus $51 And it was actually it was $30 but with the renter's insurance that I have with Lemonade, I got a 10% discount so it came to be 27 and you know, $240 a year of savings that's basically what you're looking at. And I tried to kind of like make the case for Pet plan because they said that I will stick with my plan and I somewhat I feel that I'm a loyal customer, but apparently not. And but I was really struggling because when I took I looked at Lemonade respectful, and I said, Okay, price aside, let's look at the coverage because a lot of insurance companies they say, well don't don't focus on the price focus on the coverage, get the good coverage. Lemonade's coverage was better. The limits was $20,000 was $10,000. So now I started to think and I got to a point where I said, You know what, it makes sense to switch to Lemonade, the price is better. So I went with them. And when I signed up so my dog is six okay? So he's considered to be not a puppy anymore. He's usually Havanese tehy live to be 15/16/17. But he's considered to be a little older. And it was interesting because I got the coverage from Lemonade. And then I get an email saying, hey, has he went to the vet the past year? If so, send the medical records. If not, you'll need to take Heathcliff to the vet to get a checkup to make sure that everything is fine. That's nice. Yeah. And other pet players do the same. And this is, to me a case where unlike renter's insurance, this is adding more steps to the process. It could potentially hurt conversion rates for Lemonade. So if someone has to now take their pet to the vet, forget about it. I mean, and we still live in a world and I can tell you I was having this conversation. I remember the old days it was common for dogs to sleep outside and their dog house. They wouldn't sleep asleep inside. I now with the tiny dogs that you have eight pounds, five pounds, 10 pounds, they share a pillow with their owner. And it's really like a

Nick 5:10
They are part of the family.

Avi 5:12
Exactly, exactly. So it's, it's not as straightforward as the renters, but the premium $27 versus $5 that you pay. Now I want to talk about more,

Nick 5:23
For more coverage?

Avi 5:24
For more coverage. So, the price is interesting, and we did some research on this topic. And my question is, How is Lemonade you know, so competitive in terms of pricing? So, we looked at every pet insurance provider in the US and to compare, you know, 80% deductible...80% coinsurance, $250 deductible. So I'm looking, I want to just give you guys the prices so you'll understand what we're talking about. So for example, Pet First monthly Premium would be $69. Hartsville would be $76. ASPCA which is by Crum & Forster would be $58. Nationwide, which is probably the most popular player is $77 a month. Pet plan, which you know, we've been with them for a while. When I got a quote for a six year old Havanese the price went to $145 a month. We're looking at Embrace Pets at $83 a month. Pets Best $57 a month. Trupanion was very expensive. Liberty Mutual $100 a month. So Lemonade comes in with $27 a month. How do you think they are so competitive Nick?

Nick 6:51
Okay, so they've either they've either discovered some sort of value engine that the others couldn't. Which meaning the others have expenses, that Lemonade because of their technology are able to kind of carve out or their look, or they don't mind taking the losses that come with this to get market share.

Avi 7:17

Nick 7:17
And I don't think it's the former. So I think with that many competitors, especially since pet insurance is it's not that old, but I would say it's, I would classify it as a fairly new type of phenomenon

Avi 7:34
Since the 80s.

Nick 7:35
Yeah, so I would bet that there are lots of players that have, you know, pretty streamlined tech stack. It's not something that I don't think AI can do very much about. So my guess is they're willing to take losses to get market share.

Avi 7:52
That's interesting, because you know, when you look at pet, so just so you know, across every pet insurance provider in the US, I would say 99% the experience is great online, you buy online, you get the price online, you don't have to deal with anyone on the phone or it's 100%. Just a few questions. And that's it. So the experience is the same for somebody, it has that mobile app and chatbot and, and all that stuff, but exactly the same process. For me when I look at data for pet insurance, and obviously there are some companies that are very transparent about the claims that they pay and all that you first look at the breeds, you know, obviously, Bulldogs suffer more than let's say, a shitzu, for example. But the only other element of data that I would say is, you know, noteworthy. That is if for example, if I live in Harlem and in Harlem, they have a lot of pitbulls, and I come in with my little bunnies and he likes to bark at big dogs, then I would expect to pay more because someone is probably going to eat my dog. And that's, that's where I look at the data and they say, by zip code, what type of dog do you have? We know there's a lot of this type of dog in this area, maybe but anything else what what kind of data do they have? That's that's the thing. But but it's significantly lower the price specifically in my case. And I wonder if it's the same across the board, because if it is, they're going to win over new customers, because again, it's not, you know, you look at State Farm versus Lemonade renter's insurance, the price difference was $1/$2 a month. Not something to go crazy about but 20/30 you know more that could move people.

Nick 9:40
Yeah, I think pet insurance has...Shefi talked about this when we when it was first announced that Lemonade was going to come out with pet insurance. It's got a lot of really nice characteristics to it. You just talked about how the loss statistics for the players that are here's healthy. It's it's a profitable piece of business and for Lemonade, and it's it, it doesn't have catastrophic exposure. So that's that's another nice piece, which means there's probably very little reinsurance implication given given the IPO, given the size of the market, and what Lemonade can can accomplish, I think they could probably absorb the early losses fairly easily on this, you know, until until they, you know, make make a change. I think more importantly, as a renters writer are predominantly, pet (insurance) is a very nice bundle, add on, very nice touch. Now, if their thesis holds, and you know, you're going to have basically a society that's gonna that has been trending for a long time, closer to renting versus homeowner buying. It's a nice touch right there a lot of renters in urban areas, grab the renters, and then bundle other solutions to them as you sell them the renters policy. That's perfect. But I think the the, the bigger thing that I keep thinking about it's funny because I was thinking about them this morning when I was going for my walk was that I was thinking of value and growth. Lemonade is not going to have any problem growing. It's the question I keep having about them is, they're not going to be able to climb the ladder, because the solutions they have will not work as they climb up the ladder. So as they get into homeowners, it's a...homeowner's is a completely different game than renter's insurance because you have all those catastrophic losses. So this, you know, their AI solutions aren't going to work. It's not going to help them and as a capital-light business I have a feeling Avi they're going going to be stuck in this sort of world, right? Renters, pet, life. And there's nothing wrong with that. It actually, if they just kind of sort of go in that direction, which I think they will, before they try to climb the ladder, I think there's going to be a lot there and they can be hugely successful. It's I just don't know how they capture value and deliver it to their stakeholders. This capital-light structure is something that's starting to irritate me, because capital-light means that they're not going to be they're too dependent on their reinsurance to support the business. I don't think they can climb up the ladder because they'll be even more dependent on reinsurance. I think they're going to be stuck in the sandbox with the pet, life, renters. Small transaction, you know, small to medium sized Losses where their technology can, you know, really reduce costs, really reduce friction, and they can just be a marketing engine for stuff like that. So that's my opinion.

Avi 13:12
Yeah. You know, it's it sits well with what they did so far really, they've stayed away from very complicated products that, you know, high premiums, high losses. And we talked about this, of course, but the problem is that a lot of folks in the industry, they look at Lemonade as they discovered something that no one else has, and they've executed way better than anyone else. It's yet to be seen, as we said that they they're not going into places where they know they won't have the advantage. I think with pet, it's an interesting market because it's a huge market, in terms of how many pets are out there. But again, if you have an old pet, you're not paying $100 a month to insure that pet. That's one, two is a lot of people don't even know what pet insurance is. They don't get the they don't understand what's behind it. And because they do take their pet to the vet and you have to pay and that's not covered, then you could buy a wellness package. But then if you do the math, then it's kind of the same even cheaper, just go to the vet.

Nick 14:16
Yeah, most, most, most of these kinds of coverages, I always think of like dental and vision, which is, which is something they could go into as well. I always think of those as like, those are our cash flow volatility solutions. Right? At the end of the day, you're probably breaking even but the the insurance is helping kind of smooth out these large out of pocket expenses that you may not be prepared for. The insurance will smooth it out. But when you start to tally, how much am I paying versus how much am I getting over the long run? I think the vast majority people break even or lose a little bit but by doing that, and I think this is one of those these products tenant and pet insurance it fits into that category where it's, it's really just a smooth, smooth your cash flow. So you don't have any large out of loss out of pocket losses. But at the end of the day, most people, the vast majority of people will not have will lose money, they'll pay more than they'll get, which is the whole, which is the whole point of insurance. But it avoids like the super large losses that that's where I think Lemonade is going to struggle getting into like homeowners, right? They write in Texas, they write in New York, they'll be exposed to Hurricane, tornado losses, and all of a sudden you could have a single claim that's millions of dollars. Yes, that's going to be that's going to be problematic and where I think their capital-light structure is really going to hinder them in in moving forward, but you know, it's you mentioned that pet is a big market. It's big, it's growing and for customers that aren't aware of it, who better than Lemonade right there. They're sort of the masters of marketing the masters of the message. They, I think, the way that they sort of think about marketing dovetails very well with the type of customer that would buy renter's insurance and say, Well, I have a dog, I have a cat. Why wouldn't I bundle that and save 10%

Avi 16:23
it's, you know, it's definitely the younger generation and again, those that now I can tell you, I don't consider myself a sophisticated customer. But when we went to the vet, they told us Oh, what you're feeding your dog kibble the dry dog food like, Oh, that's bad. I mean, and I have this. I always say, if it's very cheap, and it's very big, it's probably not good for you. And those are very cheap, very big bags. And we used to pay 20 $30 a month and it would last for like a month and a half, but he my dog wouldn't touch I would wait until like 12 at night, then he would eat a little bit. And that's it. Then we switch to raw food, which is like the new trend and there's the farmers dog now was in the space raised a lot of money. And that costs you $120 a month. That's like quadruple the cost more sometimes. And that's the type of customer that will go and also get that pet insurance. It's their audience, the millennials, Gen Z, the younger generation, but again, now you're talking about a product that's not $5 anymore because $25 a month $30 a month you know, they say starts from $12 depends on the dog obviously bigger dogs usually pay more in premiums because you know, they Yeah,

Nick 17:44
so shorter lifespans. Yeah,

Avi 17:45
exactly. But but I think it's, you know, you you have to pay attention to Lemonade in the space. They have Yeah, they have to get But again, it's a lot of it. You know, we talked about it for the they have the money now. They have the money before It's a very creative market, you can do a lot with it. The question is, will they do more, because everybody now is looking at pets in general, the market, there's so much going on, maybe they'll acquire a company in the space, which I think would be smart for them. A pet food brand, for example, would be very smart for them to do. That creates the stickiness. But it's interesting and the price the price play to me, that's the biggest thing. And as you said, they probably have the confidence to go in and say, no catastrophes in pet insurance. Yeah, we can do this. And that's their ultimate advantage now, and you know, they want one customer which, again, I thought it was loyal. I feel bad for pet plan. But you know what, that's insurance. That's the problem with insurance. It's not about pipeline or anyone else. It's the product. You can't justify paying too much.

Nick 18:54
So that gets to that, again, back to the capital-light structure that they've Specifically touted as, you know, there's sort of model event other going on is that if you're capital light, you can't be you can't be the low cost provider. It's not gonna work. Right, you know, you're, you're likely to accumulate a whole bunch of losses and deliver those. It's to be the low cost provider, you have to be the Geico with a or the State Farms or with the with, you know, hundreds of billions of dollars of assets to support it because it's not just underwriting. You can you can support underwriting losses with the float, and interest income on your assets. So, it's, you know, I agree with you. So, I was listening to the I think it's the NGO podcast, which is about Insurtech. They interviewed Caribou Hoenig and Rob Galbraith and a whole bunch of people about the IPO. I think half the people that they interviewed talked about how, you know, there's a skepticism about what it is that they're doing but an excitement. But it's almost like Well, one way that they can get to where they want to go, is if this stock price stays where it is, it's currency. They can buy their way to success. And I think you're right like I, I still struggle to see how they climb the ladder and insurance. I almost think they don't have to do that. Like you started to laterally adjacent markets of pet wealth, sorry, pet health, health is wealth. But pet health. There's a lot of different adjacent areas from with tenants, with pet. We know that they've already formed a life agency. So my guess is they're going to go into life insurance, they could go into vision, like there's a lot of different ancillary adjacent markets, that they could tack along wher I think their technology could be really beneficial in reducing friction. And insurance, as we've discussed Avi, insurance could be an abstraction. Insurance could just be either a loss leader in to these other things, or it could be, you know, an upsell or all these other products could be an upsell. That is much more exciting to me than Lemonade trying to disrupt insurance. I, I you know, just as you're talking about it, see, it rings true to me that that's the area they should go and that fits their market better, you know, the way the customers engage with them. So, you know, I'm sure there's more more, a lot more to come with that but, you know, it's, it's, I think it's exciting that they're doing this and the W Yeah, it converted You of all people.

Avi 21:51
Well, that I bought renter's insurance just so we can, you know, keep track of what they're doing with the app and all that but but the pet and again, I Shefi told me what do you what are you doing? Like you said, you're gonna stick with Pet Plan they they paid for your claims and, and then I look it was $51 a month versus 27. And it's hard to justify.

Nick 22:11
No. It's it cheaper with more coverage. Yeah, loyalty only goes so far.

Avi 22:18
That's that's a sad statement, but it's true.

Nick 22:20
You know. So you and you've said it a million times in insurance, I think in the majority cases, price is the biggest motivating factor for this. And so I think again, Lemonade seems to have their finger on the pulse for this and it'll be seen, you know, how successful they are.

What is what was topic number two or four this week?

Avi 22:47
So topic number two, actually, it's, you know, I like that topic, advertising. So we put a little tidbit there. This week that Next Insurance, Huckleberry, Health IQ are looking to bring people to manage direct mail. And Nick, I'm sure you get a lot of direct mail. I don't know you move to Florida. I don't know if you're getting more now or less. It's amazing how quickly it followed me.

Nick 23:16
Like how do these people know it's almost like the Secret Service is working directly with the direct mail companies?

Avi 23:23
Well, you know, he USPS I believe they provide direct mail advertising service, so they know. But what are your thoughts? Like when you get direct mail? When you get a postcard? What do you do?

Nick 23:36
I throw it away?

Avi 23:37
You throw it away immediately?

Nick 23:43
Throw it away immediately strong. I will glance at it. If it Okay, so, they have like a second to grab my attention, or else it goes into the trash? So I'm mostly looking for Hey, where's my IRS? Check You know, I'm looking for all of the states send me my insurance licenses. So I have to keep an eye on those. So you got about a second to grab my attention. And if you don't, then you're likely going into the recycling bin.

Avi 24:16
So you're you're probably very decisive the way I do it, I take it, I bring it home because my wife, she goes crazy if I throw out some Bed Bath and Beyond 20% off or whatever. So I bring it home, and they put it on the kitchen island. And I leave it there for like, could be a week could be two weeks. And I you know, sometimes I go back and I look at it and it's there. And you know, it has kind of that. I see it. So things I get from Geico I get from Progressive. I got one time from haven life. And now you're looking at these Insurtech companies which are digital first. You know, that's the promise. And they're going into direct mail which according to people in the industry, they Say how the conversion rates are actually better. Now, there's the thing is when you go with direct mail, you're not reaching customers that actually expressed interest and said, Hey, we're looking, but you want to generate that interest, which I think is interesting because the way digital is today with Google and Facebook and you know, ad blockers and all that and TV with DVRs, you fast forward through commercials. You really need to find some alone time with a customer, a potential customer. And I feel like direct mail is actually a good solution if you're able to stand out but now everybody's going to go into the space. And I feel like it's gonna be more competitive, especially for the big carriers because Geico and Progressive, State Farm as well. I think they send me a happy birthday. They know my birthday. But But what do you think? I think it's going to be good for them.

Nick 25:56
So we had our pre conversation I feel like it's Back to the Future because when I first got into insurance, this is dating myself very well pre internet, or just as the internet was starting to emerge, and that was the marketing via mail or direct marketing via you know, classified ads are that stuff that was kind of the, the the way to go. I don't have a strong opinion about it. I, I would I would use myself as a use case and say, you really need to stand out. So you know, there you have to. It's funny, you talked about Bed Bath and Beyond with your wife. My wife always get stuck with like, when I when she'll tell me on our kitchen island, hey, there's a bunch of stuff for you. And I'll go through it and it's all junk mail. But to her, it's like it looks so official. You know, it looked like it came from the government. So she didn't throw it away. And I'm just like, can't you tell that this is direct mail. So They're, uh, they're using a lot of the same gimmicks. And I think you need I think you have to find a way to stand out so I'm not against it. It's to me if you're going to do it marketing to me is you need to, you can't be the needle in the haystack. You know, you have to, you'd have to figure out a way to stand out and that's really hard to do, especially if you're right and it's like, a lot of insurance insurer tech or insurance players are are gravitating towards direct mail. How do you stand out everyone's using the same gimmicks and I don't know I will reserve judgment on it. I think it with marketing. You should you should turn every stone would find something that works.

Avi 27:46
Yeah, I agree. I think what direct mail there's a few elements you want to consider. The first is time. So it's not that the second someone takes out something out of their mailbox. They will convert immediately. You could look weeks where people will have it lying around somewhere, and then they finally get to it. So that's the first challenge. Like you have to you have to have patience. It's not going to work immediately for you. And you're kind of you know, you're, you're blind, you don't know what's going on. The second element, and this is to me kind of like a bigger picture. What does this say about Insurtechs? Because I feel like a lot of carriers, they looked at Insurtech says away, well, they know their way around in the digital world. They know how to convert customers digitally, and now you're looking at them, and I can tell you Metromile they spent a lot of money on direct mail a lot. You know, and you come in, and now you also go that route. So a carrier is going to say well, wait a second. So do you not know how to get customers online? Or is it just not profitable to get them online? Yeah. And then I'll tell you the second we see Lemonade going the route of direct mail that will No, well, no, there's trouble. Yeah, there's struggle. This has all been, you know, it's not working, run back home or run back to your conferences and let's try to figure out something new. That's what it is. Yeah.

Nick 29:14
Yeah. So you know, when a lot of the a lot of the venture capital that's coming in is they're working with the understanding that these digital players will be digital throughout all their entire DNA including marketing. And you're right if if they're like, needing to go to direct mail on their hands and knees basically going to direct mail. That is an issue right? Like that means that there's only so much water in that digital marketing well, and they've tapped out and now they need another another source of leads or what you know, whatever it is, you we'll be really in trouble if we go back to like the 50s or 60s where you You know, hey, come come to this office and we'll give you a toaster like the banks used to. Let's, let's hope we don't go that far. But yeah, that's, uh, to me, I hadn't thought of it that way. I would have instinctually I probably would have wanted to try that anyways, because that's how I cut my teeth when I first got into insurance, but for these digital players, that is that is a kind of a strong signal.

Avi 30:25
You know, I think you want to do whatever works for you. And I remember getting a direct mail, I believe it was from a Casper the mattress brand. And here's the problem with digital the problem and we talked about this, you know, if you look at the differences online and offline, so there's a limit, like Google tells you every month how many people approximately search for this search term. That's what it is. No more. You can get more people to look unless you do other tactics, but that's what you can expect when you do a search campaign. You'll know 100,000 people search a month. Maybe I'll get some of that. And there's a lot of players, not enough demand. So direct mail is a way for you to generate that demand because maybe someone didn't know or he was lazy or something like that. And what it does, I think it gives you alone time with a customer. But like, in the real world, even when you do that display advertising on Facebook and Instagram. Consumers are very goal oriented. Like if I'm looking at burgers, I'm not applying for life insurance, I don't care. Leave me alone. I'm still scrolling my feed. I don't have time for this. But when I take that direct mail, and I put it where I put it, and I said, Well, you know, this is nice design or it has something nice on it. it sinks in, you think about it, and maybe when the time is right, you'll give that company a chance and I think that's what it comes down to. But that's

Nick 31:53
marketing right like that.

Avi 31:55
That's marketing. Yeah.

Nick 31:56
So it's, as I think Peter Thiel said in his book Zero to One, it's small, subtle messages that get people moving through a funnel. Right? Like, you know, you have you have folks who are completely indifferent, they don't even know they have a problem. They don't even know that solutions exist all the way to desperate people who are ready to whip out a credit card to buy and you need various marketing messages to potentially move them incrementally, like, you know, with insurance depend, you know, like for homeowners insurance, you're not gonna get them to write a check. When they see a marketing you want them to do something, to move them one step closer to considering your product as a solution. So as you were as you were talking about that I started to think, what what if the problem is that digital marketing is too expensive? What if you like that customer acquisition costs if you use a Facebook, Google style, marketing methodology is just way too expensive and direct mail is actually cheaper.

Avi 33:04
It is. And if you look at retailers, the ones that are at Digital forefront and where they look at it, they tell you, Facebook has become expensive. Instagram has become expensive. Google has become expensive and everybody's looking for other ways. And insurance, I always feel it's kind of late to the party and they don't know they're still, you know, there's still companies out there, even Insurtech that are not raising money and they believe they can acquire customers digitally. Listen, if you want to acquire a customer digitally, you really need to stand behind your 52% promise off. That's what you need. And if you don't deliver on that, you're screwed. But it has become more expensive. Direct mail obviously as more are going to come in then the service providers are going to say well, we have demand we can also increase the prices. But this is the problem with insurance. And this is I always get back to it. You know, they don't think outside of the box, they don't say, well, maybe we can do something else, maybe the direct mail money, we could put it into creating a new product, a new service where consumers actually want and they will look for it. You look at the kwibi, for example, the streaming service that now everybody's making fun of they had a lot of downloads. They had a lot of downloads in the millions, because people like to watch shows. Now of course, they say 90% canceled because it was free. And then when it started cost money 90% left and they're in a very bad place. But there are products and services were just being out there consumers were look for you and your customer acquisition costs won't be as high. With insurance, you're offering the same product. You know, this type of postcard that type of postcard, unless you do like a really nice postcard. For example. thinking what can you do to stand out? So maybe like a sticky postcard when someone holds it that sticks to their hands and they can't get it off. You're going to get the customer very upset.

Nick 35:10
The postcard.

Avi 35:12
Yeah, something like that. But

Nick 35:17
you know, it comes down to creativity. Honestly, it comes down to its marketing. Right? It's the AIDA, right? Attention, interest, desire action. Right? Like you. There's, there are no shortcuts to this like that. You You know folks that are listening to this, I think, buy a book or start researching on how customers buy, why customers buy, look at that process. Right. And I think it's I think it's very enlightening to step out of yourself and just examine how people make decisions on what they buy and what they find valuable. Insurance is very different. The way they analyze it the way they kind of run, run through the the budgeting process in their mind. They're thinking through as I was thinking of this as, as I was walking over here, it's it's the one product where when when all is said and done, you can buy insurance and years later, you never file the claim. And you feel like you didn't get your money's worth. Right? Yeah, yes. Like I didn't use it. And that's not that's not the point of the product. And it just makes it such a tough sell because of that people feel some compelling reason that they have to, like, if I'm not using it, then it was it was wasted money. I think that's a problem, the marketing on how to get people to run, run, you know, get people to make decisions really difficult. So,

Avi 36:51
yeah, yeah, I think I mean, you're right. And it just, I think it's interesting to see really the next all those companies coming in going to get crowded but they they know if next is doing it too felt like if Huckleberry, Metromile of course Ladder, they know that digital is not working as well. So pay attention to this space and expect to get some nice direct mail.

Nick 37:17
And I'm sure Coverager will be right on top of that. So for everyone that's watching, those were the two topics for today. For Shefi, for Avi, this is the our, our fade music This Week in Coverager. Avi, thank you so much. This was

Avi 37:35
Thank you.

Nick 37:35
This was a good conversation that we had, there'll be a ton more. I know on Lemonade and I can't wait to follow what happens with direct mail. Soon there'll be someone's going to be giving away a toaster. It's it's bound to happen. We're going to go all the way back to the future so

Avi 37:50
I can use a toaster.

Nick 37:52
Yeah, okay. Hey everyone, stay safe as per usual, wear a mask. It's not that big a deal. I don't know why we're all struggling with this. If you're going outside, you're going to be in front of people respect the boundaries and just wear a mask. It's not that hard. It's not that big a deal. Avi, thank you so much.

Avi 38:14
Have a great weekend.

Nick 38:15
See you next week, everyone.

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