This Week in Coverager (6/19/2020)

“To MGA or not to MGA, that is the question. Whether ’tis nobler in the pocketbook to suffer the claims and losses of outrageous fortune, Or to broker against a sea of troubles, and, by opposing, end them?” – Some Italian Guy.

In this episode, we discuss the pros, cons, tradeoffs, and alternatives of being an MGA or going full-stack. Inspired by Shefi’s Q&A with John Swigart, CEO of Pie Insurance.

Watch here:

 

 

Transcript

Nick
And we're back This Week in Coverager. No initial joke. I have the calendar up. It is June 19. It's an early Friday morning. So I nailed that. It's it's we're, we're basically it'll be summer this week. My mind is getting cleared up so I know where I am. This is the show where we go over what what has been some of the happenings, articles topics that have come through the Coverager newsletter, and this particular week, it's been a fairly dry news cycle, but there has been some activity, Shefi interviewed John Swigart, CEO of Pie Insurance, on a Q&A and it got a lot of response which kind of coincided with responses I've been getting from our Lemonade special last week in This Week in Coverager. A lot of conversation about the startups that you know, do I go the MGA route? Do I go the carrier route and some of the trade offs so we thought rather than rehash specific news articles, we would kind of bring that up. And so Shefi I'm gonna start with you and ask you about Pie Insurance. And I edited that video, so I got to listen to the whole thing I thought. Pie has a very interesting story. And I think a lot of the a lot of their story really can put a little bit of context to those startups that want to or debating the MGA versus carrier route, Pie when in a particular direction. It could be very unique to them into their line. But I thought it was extremely strategic, very well thought out and as now given a lot of options. Can you talk a little bit about your conversation with John, & Pie Insurance and what you got out of it?

Shefi
Sure. So the way so so first of all, you know, typically at Coverager, we tend to stay really far away from the people that actually do the business. And this is a co-founders and founders and this is me in particular, because I find it really hard to be critical about something when I know the person and with with John from Pie Insurance, it's been a while It took me a really long time to reach out to him and I'm glad I did reach out to him, but I had to first establish my opinion about the company which it's just it's positive. There's no buts about it. And and what I got from John and the conversation is obviously one this is a business where you have to purchase workers compensation so education is less of an less of an issue for him. And for the customers that he's targeting. Right? So it's a it's a lot, it's an easier sell. Okay, but easier is very relative because still with Work Comp has a sweet spot with employees of up to 10 employees for now, right? Businesses are always growing and improving. So there's no doubt that people are price sensitive and instruments and made and that may may vary by channel. So he talks a lot about the difference, the differences between customers that he's getting from the agency channel versus customers that he's getting direct. And, you know, we we kind of joked about, you know, you needed all the ingredients to make a good tie. And clearly with Pie Insurance, they have that. So it's not just the agency channel model. It's not just direct, it's not just TV ads. It's not just that, you know, part marketing through customers. It's basically all of the above, but there was definitely a focus on pricing, on broad appetite. So they have an advantage in certain areas where work carriers aren't competing. And this is evidenced by the fact that he's selling through agents. So agents do have access to incumbent, other incumbents, I should say, or legacy carriers, whatever term you want to use, but they still find it relevant. And while not everybody, nobody, nothing is for everybody. So some agents will say, well, we don't want to work with Pie because they they're going direct or you're not for us. Obviously, many say you are for us, be it because again, pricing, broad appetite, technology, which kind of which is that ease of use factor? And, you know, the, I was writing Insurance Agency versus insurance carrier and all that fun stuff. So first of all, when we started the Coveragerr database, one of the hardest pain point was like looking through some of these companies...before everybody was famous and everybody knew what everybody was doing. This was really early on. We were, you know, Lemonade was the peer to peer insurer and all that fun stuff just going through the terms and conditions to understand are they're carrying the risk or their intermediary, there wasn't that much transparency going on. And so when we created the Coverager database, I put a term you know, intermediary, and we put a term insurer and we really just wanted to separate Okay, this one is regulated this way, this we don't know, this is a lead gen, etc. Right? So have that identification. So insurance agency or insurance broker to me that was, you know, this is what it was, but they didn't like it. They're like, well, we're, first of all, everybody prefers MGA or MGU. If that's the case, that's fine. But the intention, so why go that stack route is really important and the timing, when do you want to dedicate all your resources into, you know, the regulatory environment?

Avi
You know, I, saw Go ahead.

Nick
No, I was gonna I was gonna kick it to you.

Avi
So it's an interesting topic. And a really depends what you want. And I'll give you an example. So someone said, you know, founders coming into the tech scene startup founders. They don't want to sell something without knowing what's under the hood. They want to know what's under the hood. So when you look at Ethos, for example, and they sell a surety, and I think they have a few other carriers on there, you don't really know what's under the hood. It's not your product, Ethos is not selling their product. So I understand that notion of I want to know what I'm promising to my customers. I want to Know what they're getting? So yes, you go the full stack route. And you know what's under there. But let me ask you this. Is it all that different? To me it's not. It's the same. It's still insurance. And you look at Lemonade and you look at Root, and you look at Clearcover now and you look at Metromile, they all offer the same product, you still have customers complaining about the claims, you still have customers complaining that, Oh, I thought it was covered. So it's not that you're doing something revolutionary, that's significantly different than your competition. If you were doing something like that. Then I understand why you would want to go the full stack and be different. But at the end of the day, it's still insurance, you'll still see the same exact thing. You'll still have to get regulators to approve, you have to submit price increases. You still have to do all of that. So to me, you don't change. Now, of course, I always found it funny where a lot of these MGAs would come in and they said, oh, we're better. Why? I mean, it's the same product as a company that's been here for 100 years. How can you be so sure.? So I get that, but the trade off where you now have to handle claims and you have capital and you know, all the pressure is on you. It's a big deal. And we met a few months ago, some folks from a very big consulting firm and they said, Look, we looked at the data, for a long, long time, making money as a carrier...the money is not there. You want to make money as an MGA, you want that 15/20% Commission, that's where you want to be because it's very difficult to make money from you know, to make money as an insurance company from the underwriting portion. So it really depends what's your angle, but then I'll give you another example. Look at the Jetty. They stopped business because their carrier said no more business. And now they were stuck. They couldn't do anything. They have no choice. So I get that you want to control and you want to, you know, be in control. But I think that's where the relationship is different. If you come in with power, if you're an MGA that is powerful, then your carriers will say, we'll do whatever you need us to do and we'll be there for you. If you're coming in, you know, from a place where not so much and everybody's testing grounds and things like that, then you may run into problems but I personally I think, I think it's better to be an MGA it's better to be an MGA writing multiple products of different carriers to be able to compare at the end of the day. The majority if you look at personal lines, at least majority of consumers want to compare insurance. And that's where I think you should be if you're, you know, Ethos, Ladder, Bestow, I'm putting my money on Policygenius. That's where I'm putting my money and Policygenius could not have you know, the instant like letter and bestow and but at the end of the day consumers are willing, they want that comparison they want maybe to talk to someone that is neutral. At least that's what they say. So it really depends, but that's my personal opinion.

Shefi
Yeah, last year Lemonade and you offer $5 renter's insurance and people may not want to compare you but then that's that's the sweet spot as well as a headache for Lemonade because they have to see how they get them more profitable customer which is, you know, back tp Pie. He's, obviously the average premium is a lot higher for them, right? So it's an easier, easier business and navigate.

Nick
Yes. So let's go over the two C's. Because I think any startup that's coming in that's has to make this decision, has to manage the two C's control and capital.

Shefi
I was gonna say convenience and confidence.

Nick
Well, that so that that would be the next set of two C's when you when you decide we're going to go in a particular route. You know, I see. So I think I always tell folks do not try to replicate Lemonade. It's not it, you cannot replicate that you have two very experienced founders who have, you know, a successful track record, an extensive network of potential investors. The problem with trying to replicate something like Lemonade is the capital piece of it. It's already difficult to raise money. The difference the capital piece between the MGA and the carrier is just eye popping. It's whether if you go either route, you're still going to have to raise capital actually run the business. The difference with the carrier is you might have to raise 10 times that money just to get the the the carrier shell off the ground. And I think that is going to be a hurdle that I think becomes extremely problematic because even before you sell your first policy, you might have $10 million or more sitting in this shell in treasury bills, not doing anything just waiting for you to deliver business. And, you know, I think to to what Avi just said, right then and there, I think that's going to force most folks down the MGA route, because that's, that's a hurdle too big to overcome my opinion.

Shefi
You know, so here's the other side of this is that we've seen Keene insurance go this route, right. So I think this notion of you need a lot of capital. I mean, I don't know it seems to be working differently for different players. I don't know Keene insurances any way near the scale of Lemonade. It simply isn't, but they still went the full stack route, or there's a reciprocal way.

Nick
Right. But I think Shefi I think gets to the other C. I think folks that are are willing to bite the bullet and say, okay, we will we'll make that effort to raise the extra capital, to go the carrier route they want control. Yeah, they want they like there's something about their business model where it's just like, we do not want to be beholden to someone else. I think it's what Avi described with Jetty is nobody wants the plug pulled from that, like, oh, we're gonna put in, you know, two, three years worth of that effort and have a carrier pull the plug. Now I will, I think we can get more more deeply into this. And there's probably ways to protect yourself and have risk management around that particular point. But I don't know which which of you said this is the product really that different? Like, take Lemonade, for instance, it was renter's insurance. It was actually it was actually a inferior policy form. They brought nothing unique to the table when it came to the policy form. Pricing Yeah, the pricing was really cheap but I'm I still I don't like there's nothing special about their particular offering that require them to go the carrier route.

Avi
You know, the reason why and this Lemonade actually is a good example of someone going full stack and taking advantage of that control and they controlled in my opinion, their business in two ways. One was the $5 renter's insurance, show me another product in the world. Okay, that you don't know the price when you go on the website. Insurance. That's the only idea that comes to mind maybe a moving company where depends on how much you have and people understand that. You go to Dropbox to say I want you know to backup my files, starting from $9.99 you go to Netflix starting from this is the price you go on Best Buy you want to buy a TV Okay, here's the price. Lemonade, their beauty.

Shefi
Airlines

Avi
Insurance...Airlines, okay, but but even with airlines, you everybody gets the same price unless you're overweight while you may have to pay for two seats, and you don't know how much that is, but Lemonade controlled the messaging with $5. And that was the beauty. And by the way, my theory is that they took it from Fiver, when Shai Wininger get was the co founder of fiber $5. It's a nice price. So they did that. And it was good that people saw $5. And that's what they expected. And they knew when people were tweeting about it, the other aspect, which they controlled, which I thought was very smart as well, was the automation of some claims. So they had this algorithm and they said, Well, if someone stole your purse, the belongings were contents are under this amount. Just show me the receipt or whatever, here's the money automatically. And that was an amazing experience. And people talked about it. They told them Friends, I can't believe it. And that was kind of their growth engine, their their marketing strategy. But can you do this with auto? No, I mean, what are you going to do? Are you going to just snap a picture of like, Okay, well, AI Jim, I see how much the cost is, here is $10,000 you can do that. That's the problem. So Lemonade, knew what they were doing. They knew what product to choose. It was all to as we talked last week, to come in with being the most beautiful, undamaged. And of course, being that insurer for investors and for you know, the IPO, like, oh, okay, you're, you're taking on the risk. So that is the one company that control the messaging, but you know, the product really, it's not different unless you want to play that game of Lemonade. And when I mean the game, the game is that it's fake. It's not real once they'll tell them okay, go do this with homeowners. Go do this with auto. They can't do that. They can do it with pets. Huh. So that's that's a problem I think,

Nick
I think but I think Lemonade could have could have done it as via an MGA route. I think they're the..

Avi
would have you let them like say, oh pay claims automatically you think their carriers would be comfortable with that?

Nick
I do. Well, no, not comfortable. I think they could have sold it. I think

Avi
that could be Yeah,

Nick
I think they I think they could have and i think i think they, they, you know, they got control. So they created the stack. They got control. But I think that control is it's temporary. Because at the end of the day, they're not going to be able to keep that $5 price. Everybody knows it. They're just buying market share. You know, at some point the reinsurers will have more control. Like you know, if the reinsurer is just completely dislike the business model, and Lemonade can't get reinsurance. They're in trouble, like they're not going to be, their business models still depend, even though they have control, there's still a limit to the amount of control that they have.

Avi
Yeah,

Nick
You know, and so that's like, that's something that Shefi I wanted to like get, like, the way Pie Insurance basically established, Its, it's basically like agile or lean startup. Right? If you go the MGA route, it's a much it's a risk. It's a less risky, formulaic approach to creating a startup in insurance, where you can learn your lessons, get it to a particular point, and then you can expand I think that's I think that's one of the lessons of Pie is that first of all, the the co founder was there talking insurance expertise, domain knowledge, sort of knew the space knew a lot of the economics around it and and knew that if If, if we start off as an MGA, and get into the worker's comp space, we can prove out the model. And once the model is proved out now the next step to get more control get, you know, get a carrier is actually easy. Like you'll get a lot of investors, a lot of capital that will come in because you've already proved it out. Which is, which is something I would like really caution a startup from going the carrier route because you haven't proven anything, yet, you're going to need 10 times the amount of capital in order to get this thing off the ground. I think it's really risky. What do you think Shefi?

Shefi
if you give away, so if you're focusing on control, and so the first thing you need to do is focus on market share. So if the resources are being allocated to being a full stack insurer, while they're not just be the acquiring customers, and whatever way you need to acquire them, direct via agents, whatever it is, then you're wasting time because there are just new entrants all the time. And it's not just from insurance but other other companies are coming in like Bill shark. It's not a direct competitor to insurance but the minute it partnered with Answer financial, then it's blocking somebody else from getting access to their customer base. I'm not saying that partnership in itself is a success story, because there's going to be a level of marketing that's required in order to push that message in order to tell tell people Hey, download the app, shop for insurance. But this is the world we're living in. People are promoting shopping, quoting insurance. This is a price sensitive industry. So I feel like the answer is going to be eventually as I said, Nobody wants to tell their mom, they they own an insurance agency. I really I believe that it's a we're all like, it's a hunch. It's what people tell me.

Nick
I think

Shefi
what we work in,

Nick
you're kind of leaning towards the other two C's. I think what you're saying is You know, a lot of startups come in and they're focusing on control and capital. And what you're saying is you should be focusing on the other two C's prove that out, which I think you said it's convenience and customers.

Shefi
Confidence. So the idea is right confidence, right? So Well, you know, with more confidence, maybe less of a confidence competence game because people know that they have to buy work comp with renter's insurance, there was some kind of education to do or Hey, I need this product as well, because it's optional. Same thing goes with life insurance, right by the job is optional.

Nick
Workers Comp is mandatory. Excuse me, workers comp is mandatory. But there's a lot of competitors. Pie kind of stands out, right. Like as you were, as you were having that conversation with John. They kind of stood out. So here's this more modern insurance company that was making just the right tweaks to a very rigid model workers comp is you know, highly regulated by the states, including rates and there's, you know, you don't have a lot of elbow room to go around there. And they kind of nailed down the convenience part of it by being more digital. They made the product better. And I think that increased the confidence, which gave them the proof that this is going to work like this is this is a this is a really good business model. This is how we're going to execute on it. And that is allowed them now to get access to capital to and now to get more control over the business.

Shefi
Yes, absolutely.

Avi
Yeah. There's there's two more elements that you know, you need to

Nick
two more c's???

Avi
to know to more I would say business models. Okay. To me, that's the basic and the first is if you're an mga and you now want to go work with agents like Ethos and Bestow, that's that's doesn't make a lot of sense because you're a middleman Now you want to work with another middleman. So that's one too many middlemen, you know, and it's a problem. Because if you're giving away the commission to the agent, that traditional commission, because you wouldn't get them another way, then you're basically saying, well, we're just putting premiums on the book, but we're not probably going to see any profit, maybe a few percentages. And that's it.

Nick
Yeah. Yeah.

Avi
So so that's a problem. And I can understand why, for example, Hippo, which, you know, they do work with agents, and they're saying, Well, if we want to work with agents, we need to justify that and become a carrier. And then we're just like everyone else, and we're okay with that. The other element is really, about being I would say, collaborative with your partner and launching the right products. And I'll give Next as an example, with Next insurance. They come in and say, listen, the way you're doing commercial insurance, it's different because a fitness instructor, a photographer, they're different. We can't ask you the same questions. We can't do the same things with them. It's not auto insurance, that's clear cut. They felt that they were bringing in customers but the products were not good. So they said, You know what, let us be the carrier let us launch our own products, and that I can understand. Another company vouch insurance is proving the other method where they are working with their partners Munich Re, and they are collaborative and they're saying, well, you have to understand technology companies, they're not the same. You can ask them these questions you can expect 1,2,3 let's build a program for them and and they went on and they did that. I don't know if it's because they're backed by Silicon Valley Bank or it's Ribbit capital. But Munich Re is listening, you know, so. So that's the thing. These are the elements. And you really have to look at the full picture but to me, like the marketing, can you get customers on your own If you need to work with an agent, and you're in MGA yourself, where's the where's the profit? When will you be profitable? When will you return your investors money? But but I do think that as an, you know, IPO while we did see Everquote and Select Quote, have good results with their IPO, and they are middlemen, right. I do think an MGA, they're gonna say, well, we prefer either you're like a lead gen or you're like a marketplace because everybody loves marketplaces today, like Amazon and Google and Facebook, or you own the product and we have some confidence knowing that you will know how to underwrite better than these legacy insurers or you'll know how to delight customers better than these legacy insurers. So it puts you in a pickle right? I think you're in a difficult situation.

Nick
I think you're gonna be in a pickle no matter which direction you go. Right? That's like that's the that's the problem. You know, with you know, I think startups that are coming into the insurance space to have to make this decision, I think there's going to be a lot of regret. Because it's a trade off, I can't, I think whatever direction you go, you're going to have a constant stream of evidence that you might have, you might have been better off going the other way. And you just, you're not going to be able to escape that. So I'm gonna I'm going to kind of circle back I think it's gonna boil down to what Shefi said, It ultimately comes down to execution, whatever, whichever route you decide, you have to be really confident that you understand the trade offs around it, and you have to be able to execute it. Right. Right.

Shefi
Okay. And it's a game of actions and counter actions, right. So nobody is saying, Okay, we've got our competition. We're going to stay where we are. I just noticed this week that Hiscox updated their landing page, right. So obviously, they're working everybody is going to improve their message. At the end of the day, you just want to make sure that in insurance not all customers are created equal. So there is that element of attracting the better customer, the one that is you can move you can move them easily away along kind of the pricing route, and then maybe you bump bill right even, even Pie Insurance mentioned that they're starting with work comp. But it's really hard to be, you know, just you just offer a single product that says that all the time, right? Don't Don't just offer one product. That's not the world we live in.

Avi
But you know what, let me ask you this. Let me ask you the question. And this is a question I've been asking myself for a long time. What if, and this is a, you know, a very disruptive question. What if the way for insurers to make money is not by focusing on insurance? What if we don't need MGA is to make insurance more convenient, because convenient is a relative term, and with insurance pricing is a bigger factor and distribution is a big problem. What if you don't need to focus on insurance too? And what if insurance companies can make money or be more profitable by not focusing on insurance? And to me that's, that's the question because, you know, I look at the American family invested in wise, I think last week or two weeks ago, three weeks ago. And Wyze has over 2 million customers users that you know, have their cameras and he's monitors w, y, z. e. Okay. So the company raised a total of $30 million without investment from American Family. And they have I think, 2.4 million customers. Lemonade spent, I don't know, I would say it would be fair to say 150 million in advertising to get close to 800,000 policyholders so 30 million to manufacture a product, actually manufacturer the cameras and 150 million to get 800,000 policyholders...I think Wyze is a wiser decision for an insurance company because they have the engagement. They have an enormous amount of data. You should see their community they have this like forum where people submit photos of you know, things that Wyze camera captured, whether it's a raccoon going into their garbage, or their neighbor peeing on their tree. Things, crazy things like that, and really an engagement and

Nick
Not so crazy in this day and age!!!

Avi
Yeah, and that's so to me, that's like, okay, American Family. Good. You went with the Ring. You did now another Smart Home play. Good for you. Still, I would say, look, it's no guarantee that every customer was going to buy insurance for American Family. No way. But maybe American Family could be the middleman saying, hey, Wyze user base, you need to get home insurance. I don't care if you buy it from Travelers or this company or that company, we're gonna get a cut from it. So it doesn't matter if you go with us or not, we're gonna profit either way.

Nick
can i describe a scarier scenario we want to talk about real disruption XFINITY. Xfinity already leases out cable boxes and stuff. Xfinity already has their sights set on smart products. Xfinity is already in a position where they could basically say, you know, you you have subscribed to our cable stuff. Here's our router, our internet, our cable box, phone, security, now...IoT smart devices. That's one small leap to Okay, well, you should be buying homeowners insurance from us. They don't even have to have another they don't even have to be the carrier. They can just be the broker, collect the fee. And whoever offers the cheapest price can be Xfinity homeowners broker and get access to all of the smart equipment already pre installed, the insurer doesn't have to worry about it. I don't think that's far fetched Avi, I think in 10 years, we could be living in a world where we could be using words like insurance as a service. Risk Management as a Service

Avi
So when Lemonade says our strategy was to focus on renters to then morph into a homeowner's insurance company, whatever that may be. When I look at Wyze, I say Lemonade your strategy sucks, because you could have become a smart home player development cameras for cheap and sell them for $20 like Wyze did get 2.4 million customers, which is the majority are homeowners by the way. And I bet you your customer acquisition costs would be significantly lower. So it's all relative. And we, I mean, we always say we talked about this Coverager all the time maybe the road to redemption doesn't start with insurance. And and for all the startup founders out there, the MGA, the full stack carrier, it's not too late to change. If anyone can change, If anyone has the talent, that technology to do something fast, and try a different model. There's no shame in pivoting. You should do it. A pivot is not going from direct to working with agents. That's a bad pivot. Do something else.

Nick
I love that.

Shefi
Hold on What Progressive and invested in FinTech company? Remind me the name.

Avi
Wait, wait, wait, I remember the name. Holden was a serious around a Vero? Veros? Yes.

Shefi
Right. And I thought that was really significant, right? Because here's Progressive Sometimes I'll partner with a few Insurtech here and they're hard to call it like they're moving out of their element Progressive as a as a great carrier to begin with. And their major investment major investment is in FinTech. Right. So I do feel like we've seen everything that there is to be seen from Insurtech. And then,

Avi
On demand, I think on demand, there's still some more potential on demand. You know, that's what I think. Yeah, but, right, I'm joking. I'm joking.

Nick
Well, no, no, no, right. The on demand gets to what you were talking about Avi, which I think is a is a really complex pricing and business model. That might make more sense coming from someone else, right, like the insurance is tack-on to some other elements. So Shefi it's it's a different form of bundling. Right, my example of xfinity is a different form of bundling. They're, they're coming in they're bundling insurance as the last piece to an already established business model, insurance is going in the other direction. They're starting with insurance. And I like I agree with Avi, I think if you're a startup founder, maybe the question is not MGA versus carrier, maybe the maybe it's I'm going to build an audience of something where there's going to be a risk management element to it. And I'm going to be able to bolt on some sort of insurance solution to solve that risk management problem while I continue to cultivate the audience.

Avi
And you know, what the beauty here is it it's because Wyze their business model is challenging because they sell the camera, they barely make any money on the camera, $20 camera, you know, they don't have that recurring revenue. So they're in a difficult situation because they're saying, well, we need the recurring revenue. You know, we need insurance companies have the other problem. They have the recurring revenue, but they don't have the audience. So Insurance companies.

Nick
It's a good pairing...

Avi
Yeah, exactly. So you can come in and you could be a disrupter like anyone else. Like you could be like Amazon, you won't be like Amazon. But you could have that mindset of Amazon saying, we will give you a very cheap product, we will give you that amazon music, cheaper than Spotify. And guess what? Not everybody loves Spotify as Spotify likes to believe. Some people are cheap like me. And I'll go with Amazon because they have a family plan. And that's it. But Amazon can do that. Then Spotify talked about it all the time. And Pandora, how these companies are kind of launching initiatives that are loss leaders for a different product. So if I could give you a camera and lose $5 on the camera, I'm happy because I may earn a customer that would have cost me $300 to bring

Nick
Yeah,

Avi
So so that's what you need to do insurance companies. You have the biggest gift I think what has been the disadvantage of insurance for centuries which is the being a neutral product you can taste it, you can smell it, you can feel it, you know has nothing no shape, no form.

Nick
Yeah

Avi
That is an opportunity today because neutral can be tied to so many other products and services and to us that's the way we always said that's the way Lemonade, you know Lemonade is just for show they're here to get an exit that's it you can do it you can do it with car insurance look at Root Look how many claims people they have. It's not good you know the someone wrote a review last week how they treat seniors bad. Why is Root treating seniors better I didn't even know seniors buying insurance from but but there's no secret there's no magic and the again the the way the redemption is really either partnering with a company likewise, buying a company like why is competing with a company like why is it good to So many things. Really, just once you start thinking about insurance, the world opens up.

Nick
Well, you brought up music. So I'm going to let me turn up the volume are our fade music, which means we probably beaten this dead horse. But this is going to be a topic that we're going to be talking about for a considerable period of time, I think but it was a quiet week. Thank you both. Shefi I loved your I loved your interview with John Swigart of Pie Insurance was kind of was the impetus for this. So for anyone that's listening, go to the show notes. I'll have a link to that particular interview. You should really watch it Shefi is a natural and I feel like my job here is in jeopardy of interviewing because she doesn't know

Shefi
I you got it started and you're with us. So that's all that matters.

Nick
Yeah. So for all of you that are watching, listening, thank you so much. Until next week, this is This Week in Coverager. Have a great weekend.

Shefi
Bye everybody

Avi
Bye