EP8 – Owning Your Own Insurance Company. Pandemics, Business Interruption & Captive Ins w/ Van Carlson & Clay Ogden of Strategic Risk Alternatives

Continuing on our theme of using captives to provide pandemic coverage for businesses, I spoke with Clay Ogden and Van Carlson of Strategic Risk Alternatives, a firm dedicated to helping small-to-mid-sized businesses get access to insurance captives. A captive allows businesses to own their own insurance company. A risk management strategy when coverage is non-existent, uneconomical and/or when the business wants to step up their risk management effort.

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Van Carlson (LinkedIn)
Clay Ogden (Linkedin)
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Transcript

Nick
We're live. We're here. Clay and Van. Welcome. We're, we're, we're going to be talking about pandemics. We're going to be talking about captives. We were having a conversation before we started rolling. Then Clay, why don't you introduce yourself?

Van
where you want to go first?

Clay
Yeah, sure. So I do National Business Development for Strategic Risk Alternatives. And I've been with the company going on going on three and a half, four years now. It's been it's been a A lot of fun constantly talking to people about these types of programs that they may not know exist, and or our program looks a little bit different to them. And it's very applicable to small to mid market businesses across the board and we're trying to help them you know, find a way to more effectively manage their, their risks that they have now.

Nick
Yep. Ben.

Van
Yeah. So Van Carlson, founder and president of Strategic Risk Alternatives, been in risk management for almost 30 years now. I would consider pretty much my professional life. And, you know, I got involved in this concept back in 2008, of owning some kind of, you know, insurance company, I you know, I had a very successful property casualty agency. I was in the upper 1% production, you know, producers...had four or five agents working under me and fairly size office. Six to 7000 policyholders and you know, '08 came along and and I was introduced to the concept but to be quite honest with you I was never really interested in in talking to business owners about owning some kind of form of the insurance company especially.

I was busy you know, the road was it was a busy time right

Nick
you know and and insurance was covering pretty much everything anyways, why would why would a company need to do that?

Van
Yeah, why would you transfer the risk for pennies on the dollar? We had a soft market for forever right? I mean, the premiums weren't going up per se they were limiting more and more exposure especially in hurricane districts and stuff like that. But for the most part though, we you know, I was like, man, I don't have time to learn this, understand this and everything else and of course, here comes '08 and these were just like everybody else in the property casualty business that you know, agents, clients, they become friends, you know, these are business leaders in the community typically, and, you know, they're struggling to stay alive during the financial downturn. And, you know, I witnessed business owners that had these tools, and they thrived in, 08', 09' and 10'. And I just thought, man, this is what smart money does. This is what this is the way to mitigate risk, you know, and I've been telling clients for a long time now, if you having really good years, just to put a little bit off, take a little bit off the top market off to the side is risk mitigation, 101. You know, unfortunately, there is no incentives to save money, given the current tax structure, especially when it comes to business owners. Business owners understand that 172 accelerated depreciation really well. And you know, and who doesn't like, who doesn't like buying stuff, right? Yeah. So you know, but that's not great for small middle market business owners. And, you know, I thought this more of a of a way to help business owners bring better strategies and than just taking it and borrowing more money are doing all the things that they have a propensity to do, which, you know, in downturns, weather it's economy, pandemics, natural catastrophes, you know, on a global basis now, so when you talk about supply chain risk supply chain risk comes from a lot of, you know, that can hit you in any different kind of categories. Sure. And then, of course, political risk, you know, the government, foreign governments relying on your product to get here. And so, there's a variety of risks that goes into Yeah, much more complicated today than they've ever been.

Nick
Okay, so what precipitated this particular discussion is that, you know, we're in the middle of COVID-19. Pretty much every other article I'm reading in the insurance journals in the insurance blogs has to do with what's covered...what's not covered, and for the most part, this isn't covered, right. So this is, this is caught

Van
Actually it was covered until SARS came out. And then when SARS came out, some of the big carriers realized the had some holes...some interpretation issues. And they actually lost in court on a couple of cases for business interruption. So they specifically then after that excluded in their, in their contracts, that anything that's pandemic or requires quarantine will be will be excluded from the policy under business interruption that's under even contingency business interruption policies. So, you know, it, it's gotten more defined because we've had more pandemics. Now, we may not have taken it as severely as we are today. I think this is probably the first time in our lifetime, and maybe even our country's history that we've had these type of situations where, you know, our economy is basically being shut down. Yeah.

Nick
I mean, it's, it's unprecedented, right? Yes. And given that it's not covered. Even if it was Clay & Van then I mean, this would it would put the industry under a lot of stress and there'd be a lot of insolvencies of some very big companies if this if this were to occur. But the thing, the thing that where I've just find this conversation so timely, is that there's not going to be any rush to go and provide coverage. This isn't most insurers are not going to view this as an opportunity. So this is a giant risk management hole.

Van
Well, look at cyber Nick, I mean, cyber, they haven't really done a great job with cyber, they're not in a big hurry to increase their risk...appetite for risk when they're doing pretty good now. Yeah, so you know, you put I mean, we thought cyber was the big risks, small businesses were facing we kind of knew in the background it was business interruption first and foremost, because the world's gotten complicated and always has been but it just keeps it you know, real keep shrinking, right? with technology, everything else. And when that happens, you know, there's it's a, it's a potentially unforeseen risks that to your point and you know, you need to think about apologize for that I probably shut my

Nick
voice off cell phone. We're not live no one listening cares.

Van
And so you know that the point there is is, you know, the business interruption part of it and the thing is is you know, as time goes on to your point, I don't think the insurance industry has no interest...zero interest to create better coverages for business interruption.

Nick
Yeah. And they would, they wouldn't even know how to price that out how to manage the risk. I mean, it's just basically

Van
It's catastrophic right there. Yeah, they don't want to cover earthquakes and hurricanes. And for that matter, you know, you know, I mean, so So now, so, you know, it's like a good example. You know, the the reason that we even do what we do today is because of that tax code called a 831 b allows small business owners to own some kind of form of their own insurance company, and there's tax advantages to the 831 b tax code, which you Absolutely talk about. But if you go back to 1986, when the Tax Reform Act of 1986 was introduced, and you know, I was still in high school, I'll just tell everybody that right now. You know, I wasn't paying attention. But when you look back at that Reform Act, it was pretty a massive change to the way a lot of Americans did things. I mean, up until then, all interest rates were deductible, for example, After 86 Tax Reform Act only mortgage interest were deductible now, so there was a lot of changes. Congress was being run by Democrats, we had a Republican and an executive, Reagan, and we had a house speaker, Tip O'Neill. And what was happening back then was crop insurance...crop insurance to be in the private sector. And what happened to during those mid 80s, it was a private sector was getting out of it. It was unprofitable, just like earthquake zones and hurricanes and all those things.

Private sector, we're getting out of it.

Congress had to come up with a way to create an incentive for farmers to basically cover their own crop insurance. Yeah. Today now, the biggest crop subsidies there are out there right now is crop insurance and it's literally 100%. The premium is 100% subsidized, meaning if the farmer puts up $1, the federal government matches it with another dollar. And it's a complete hundred percent business interruption policy, which means it says if the crop was sold out is how, you know infestation route...fire, you know, hasn't do with the market pricing or anything like that. It has everything to do with damages to the crop. Sure. That was beyond the control of the farmer. That's a straight up business interruption policy. So that was even why it was created back in 1986. Now, you fast forward now what is that? 32 years? 30 years 34? No. So how 14 and 24 years ago think about how the age of information sensitive that the complication of life when it came comes to trying to understand supply chain, it's magnified so much more on risk. And so you know, that's why we're that's why we didn't talk to the clients and so I started this to know a Strategic Risk Alternatives we're in and we help our clients usually don't trust company we recognize risk they can't insure for or they're self insuring their best now and there's gonna use after tax dollars to fight the fight. And unfortunately most of our business owners I mean, I was just listening to a report today, most your small middle market business owners have about 30 to 60 days of cash flow in their in their pipeline. And you know, cash flow is constantly being replaced with new dollars being you know, as customers come in, you know, you know the transition of customers and selling and buying products right. Whenever when it gets cranked down like it is today. You know, you're looking at 30-60 days of cash flow, which means, we tell our clients very, very commonly, that the greatest intangible asset, and that's really what we're trying to talk to clients about as intangible assets to their business. And unfortunately, a lot of times, well, it's not unfortunate. Most clients will value the intangible assets of their business much more than the tangible, right? That's the blue sky. That's the cash flow, that you know the brand in their community, they're the product they bring to the table. That's the value they have in their business. However, I tell clients all the time, traditional insurance companies do a really good job insuring traditional insurances, you know, fire, theft, vandalism, smoke damage, vandalism to buildings, general liability, you know, the right to defend and you know, all those things have have great value from a business owner standpoint, work comps great. I mean, there's a lot of things that traditional insurance companies do really, really well, but it's really tied to the tangible assets of the business right, the buildings, the vehicles, Those types of things. So when a client's more worried about the intangible assets of their business, then how do they How do they How do they mitigate that risk better? And when really, it's when you're self insuring the risk, we show them how to do it more and more valuable. And again, I tell clients very plainly, the greatest intangible asset of any business is your cash flow of your business.

And so that's kind of weighing it out right now.

Nick
Yeah. So that's, that's what we're getting to the just stuff, right? It's given us given the environment that we're in there's going to be a lot of demand for Hey, I never want to go through this again. Right. And so and that's going to be everything from the very very large companies to what what where, where does this start? And let's let's let clay talk a little bit sorry, click. You know, what's where At what point like should the mom and pop up The place be thinking of this. What, when you guys are trying to structure this? What is the bottom of the company size? Where this starts to make sense? And can you just give a little bit of description of where it's ideal where just it's almost a no brainer versus the gray area? Kind of give us some context for anyone that's listening. So they can we can try to understand how this can help industry like that.

Clay
yeah, I'll go ahead and answer. I mean, on average, our clients sizes range between a million in revenue to 15-20 million in revenue. You know, what the bulk of our clients being somewhere in that one to 10 million in revenue gross revenue spot?

Yeah,

Nick
That's actually lower than I thought. Yeah. Yeah, it is. That's considered small business.

Clay
Sure. Yeah. That was that's really what we're most of our clients sit. Our program really is built for that purpose. There's a lot of captives out there that, you know, just cost structures alone, you have to have more revenue and cost a lot more than ours. But that's really where we're Strategic Risk Alternatives fits.

Nick
That makes a lot of sense. So I started to think like, let's take pandemic. So let's take a company, let's say $10 million in revenue looking for business interruption insurance for a pandemic, they never want this to happen again. They reach out to Strategic Risk Alternatives. How does it work?

Van
I so so just so you know, on that, Nick, I mean, one of the things that we when we built our program, you know, my, my clients were the small middle market business owners and so we when we built the program, we wanted to be sensitive. We wanted to be flexible in the markets because you know, the Some years where guys can't, can't, you know, they had a downturn a year for whatever reason, you know, owning your insurance company shouldn't have to kill, you know, you shouldn't have to kill the goose right? So. So we were very sensitive, which also allowed us to bring in more clients that can take advantage of based on pricing where it made sense for him. And we have 14 core risks that we've recognized that clients are currently self insuring for. This past year. I say past year 2018, we introduced a new policy to our suite of policies, third party business interruption, but we are starting to watch was third party business center. And that's a prime example of this pandemic thing. So we're seeing a lot of triggering of that policy right now. And what we mean by third party business interruption is for example, we have a electric electric serger surgeries have gone away. They either shut down or they're just there. If they're not necessary, then they're shut down. So that Uh, you know, all the referrals stopped. You know, so So when you're when doctors are doing elective surgeries a lot of times they rely on other doctors refer them patients that that straight up. That's a third party business interruption we see it. We really when we first designed the program to be quite honest with you we're relying more on your CRM systems, right your customer management systems, your cloud servers, right? So if I'm relying on XYZ to hold my information in the cloud, and it was compromised somehow, that's third party business interruption, right. So we always talk about direct and indirect losses. You know, is it a direct loss or indirect and again, traditional insurance companies traditionally do a very good job with direct losses when it comes to business interruption, that means there was fire on the property and I can't do business anymore, you know, typically comes with an 18 month policy with another six month business contingency contingency on it so great coverage but These indirect losses become an issue, for example, you know, we talked about it anytime you rely on a third party to provide business for you, and if they're interrupted, that would trigger that. So this would be a good example for that political risk. I mean, our state we live in Idaho, I live in Idaho and the state the state of Idaho, just shutting down. It's a mandatory lockdown, and they're saying for two weeks,

Nick
so that would qualify.

Van
Absolutely. That's a political risk policy that the government agency had he had to he had to shut it down. The reason why we got more and more political political insurance was in a case down in Dallas unfortunately several years ago when they had a big shootout and it was get a lot of police officers were killed in the downtown Dallas was really shut down for four days because it was it was a it was a crime scene. Crime crimes Yeah, yeah. So that so anytime a government agency gets involved you know like and then you know, restaurants specifically to with nor viruses, we were looking at more versus coming off cruise ships offering to pay the customer Walking in, and, you know, get people potentially sick and you didn't serve them bad food. It wasn't foodborne illness, it was simply the fact you had a sick patient in your restaurant. And now the health welfare departments were requiring you to shut down for three days to sanitize your restaurant, you know, we're in these guys went on thin margins. So even for three days, it could be detrimental to their business. So these are typical things that we looked up for political risk. Again, we're you know, we're seeing it obviously rise, and obviously, it's glaring today with the pandemic. and government agencies are saying all sorts of things around in there basically, even if you even if you weren't, you know, construction business, for example, or one man shop, and he did, you know, plumbing services. I mean, this is the kind of things that are being shut down right now. Yeah, and unfortunately, it is what it is, but those are all political issues. And then of course, the third one, the third one we're looking at is contingency business interruption. That's obviously has another another big one. as well. You know, this has also opened our eyes to a lot of additional risks that we can be doing for our clients putting endorsements on these core policies, I just talked about adding to payroll, for example, your your payroll for your employee during this downturn. So not just, you know, typically what we do is look at loss of income, and all those kinds of things, right, and we can talk about how we determine those losses. I think that's always important to understand. But the side of that, though, is, you know, do you want to care? Do you want to have endorsements to cover your debt, so your rent payments, your loan payments, all those things now start to become more more glaring to us like, oh, man, oh, you know, we should have been offering these endorsements to our clients so they can help offset some of these additional issues they're having right now. You know, these these were learning to on some of this stuff. And, you know, we'll, you know, I tell our clients that, hey, we're going to have claims these are going to happen but You know, so So we do a full on analysis risk analysis. Like I said, most of our clients are going to come out with seven to eight, we have dispute resolution, we certainly have brand protection. We have it we have a robust business interruption for cyber cyber cyber policies, do a good job protecting your your patient or your clients or your patients that have been compromised, but they don't do a great job with business interruption. Typically there's a sub limit, and it's a very small supplement. And of course, brand damage that goes along with that, right. So these are things that we look at that that you know, again, business owners are self insuring these risk for, yeah, how do we better make that better form so that would be a you know, pretty in depth analysis, we, especially if they're in the industry, we're familiar with, we knock it out pretty we know what they're, you know, we're always amazed how people do make money in this country, thank god and we always get some business owner when I do what, and that's a great thing about this job that this business is, you know, dealing with forward thinking people entrepreneurs, you know, People that worry about what you know what's keeping them up at night and some of the things, and unfortunately, is that a lot of things just got added to that list. Unfortunately,

Nick
Yeah, no kidding. And I'm starting, you know, there's a lot of political backlash, as well. So I'm starting to think of, I mean, you hear it predominantly with the larger companies. You know, they've spent the airlines have spent the last five years buying their stock back. And, you know, as a, as an executive of a company, you have a delicate balancing act, where, if you have cash, what do you do with it? Do I invest it in the company, if I don't have investment opportunities? Do I dividend it to my shareholders, or do I buy back shares? How do I manage all of that and so the traditional approaches has been over the last few years, buy back your stock, it's better than a dividend because there's no tax. associated with it. And now there's this political backlash, and I'm now I'm starting to think, well, maybe the best thing would have to do would have been to buy an insurance policy. You have to have your own captive to cover an event like this.

Van
I would tell you, every publicly traded company has their own captive, and they don't care about the $2.3 million deduction. Microsoft's not going to get a product liability. product liability sold to him by Zurich, right. And Zurich does have a brand damage policy. It covers up I think you gotta have pre gross revenue of 100 million or more, but it's really designed for the, for the big guys, right? The Russell 2000 you know, publicly traded companies typically, and into some of the larger companies that are probably held as well, but you know, this thing's been around, like I said earlier. They've been 34 years and I'm just doing my math wrong. It's been 34 years 34

Nick
and my gosh, Beth well So who who would this not be appropriate for?

Van
Who would it not be?

Nick
Besides that, besides someone that doesn't have enough revenue? You know, let's, let's say there's a company that's doing $10 million of revenue, is it? Is it? Is it wide enough to encompass everyone? Or is there there? Are there actually companies in that space where you may tell them you know, this this this isn't really for you?

Van
You know, I don't think it's so much the gross gross revenue, we've got clients that do a lot less than a million dollars even on our books are good examples of guys that do multi level marketing. I mean, typically, they have very little overhead the you know, and we get a lot you know, commerce is different today, right? I mean, it's interesting, right? I mean, there's we got a lot of clients and everyone received their products. But you know, they work out of their house, their overheads very low for the most part, you know, in our program still works, I think It comes down to who the client is, and I'm very forward with the client. I mean, our our typical client is beyond the keeping up the Joneses. Don't worry about getting a new house or only three or four of them, don't go out and buy new cars every year so they can take advantage of the 172 accelerated depreciation. I when I give a talk in front of CPA firms, you know, CPA conferences and property casualty agents and family financial advisors always talk about who is our client and our client really is a what we see is a married couple in her 50s very successful put every dollar they ever made back in their business, their businesses who they are so successful, they ship their kids off to college, and then the kids come back and say mom and dad, we don't want anything to do with the business. And now they're wondering what's going to happen to them. You know, you know, it's been interesting, because you know, so I've been in the financial world for a long time to everybody's talking about this. This. This trance, trance transition of wealth right from the bait, you know, from the greatest generation down to the baby boomers and eventually down to the next generation. What I find interesting is nobody's literally talking about now, these are the same businesses that are at risk today close, who's gonna take over all these small businesses that Congress and everybody's worried about? You know, we're not making more risk takers. unfortunate. And because risk is becoming one of those things, too, you know, not to get too political here, but risk is becoming less and less. There's no reward. Why take the risk, right. And this will be another good example. You know, I just did a video because the IRS doesn't like these programs. I was here right now. They've been abused. Like every these are tax advantaged vehicles and I got any tax advantage vehicles will have abuse around. There's a way around that way the world works. But you know, they've done recently some things that I think are egregious, to say the least when it comes to the They've approached some of our clients and other clients for that matter to really rely on these programs. But, you know, I don't think I think the client today needs to be forward thinking needs to be passed. They're spending time everybody goes through that. And I'm not, I'm not regretting that I'm not enough. They want the boat, they want all that. But if you're not a saver, because this is a forced savings program, this this requires you to build reserve surpluses, you're going to be required to save money, you're expensive out of your operating company. But you're going to leave that money there. And that's in there's rules that we put in place to protect everybody that we work with. Yeah. And we don't need to dive in deep on how this thing the mechanism, just know there's a four part test you have to go through. There's some regulations of this thing.

Nick
Well, I want to I want to touch on that just a little bit. I want to know generally, like, Are there are there limits, you had mentioned Microsoft Then you throw out a number of like two and a half million. Is there a max cap? That 2.3

Van
per year is the most 3 million? Yeah, but it has to be actually determined, you just can't. You know, the problem is in the past, it was just made up numbers, everybody just put as much money as they could into it right there, you know, relative to the risk being underwritten. And, and if you looked at some of the things that, you know, the other thing is, is back in the mid 2000s, a couple smart estate tax attorneys got got ahold of this tax code, and really used it more for avoiding the estate tax is a state tax play. So you know, it was great to estate tax planning, hey, I'm gonna own an insurance company, I'm gonna have an irrevocable trust to own it. I'm gonna have my kids own it. I'm gonna, you know, because it's worth zero today. And I'm gonna pump a million at that time, you can put up the $1.2 million into it. And you can put $1.2 million a year into that thing every year. And so you're What are you doing? You're devaluing your state. Moving the money into this captive. And now you don't own it. So you die, the money's already over there and it doesn't it doesn't become part of your estate. That's really great tax planning, it really was, unfortunately was too good. You know, I work with the IRS, you know, give me once don't give me twice. Unfortunately, there's tax advantages to the program, which means the premium that goes into these vehicles. Now, it's under 2.3 million. Like I said, it was 1.2, the path that changed all that. And they also did away with the state tax plan. So today, you don't get to use that vehicles and state tax plan. It's not being it's not being used that way, unfortunately, was hijacked for about 10 years. So if you look at the core cases that are in a pipeline right now and everything else, the IRS attack these things, based on the fact they weren't in there, they're being used for what not what the intention originally was set out to be. And that's really the self insuring risk of business owners. How do you how do you make it to where you can build up a tax advantage reserves and not try to use after tax money to fight the fight. Right. So, all that aside, you know, so there's some things there that that, you know, through court cases and all that set precedents and we know what that precedence is now we make sure we adhere to it, adhere to it with our clients. You know, you do have a pooled risk, meaning that clients are going to share in claims. That's one of the biggest hurdles, we have to explain to clients that you can't own 100% of your risk and call yourself insurance company doesn't work that way. Yeah, one of the basic principles of insurance is utilizing law of large numbers and if you can't show the IRS how you're doing that, it's going to be very difficult to call yourself an insurance company because that is one of the basic principles of insurance.

Nick
So So, there is basically kind of summarize what we just talked about for the small to mid size business owner, there is an opportunity To cover business interruption due to the unforeseen circumstances, like the one that we've we're going through now, there is an opportunity for them to perform some sort of risk management for those that don't want this to happen again.

Van
Absolutely. Unfortunately, it's been around for 34 years and a lot of clients. You know, we work with CPAs, all over the country, we have clients all over the country, please, like I was saying earlier, his job is to go out and recruit other advisors to represent our products. You know, we have a lot of other products. You know, I cut my teeth with the auto warranty program, you know, there's a reason why auto dealers want you to buy their warranty, it's because they're selling that risk in the back and there's putting that risk in their own insurance company. You know, I can talk about another time, but just know those are great products. Those are great business strategies is the reason why Warren Buffett owns insurance companies. So it's that I would like to throw that out there for everybody to understand. You know, there's advantages you get by owning an insurance company that only insurance companies get. And we know that the strongest financial institutions in our country by far and so, all that aside, you know, the the advantages out there for business owners to understand it, but we got to get over some hurdles. We got to get to CPAs to understand that this is, yeah, they're put this on the Dirty Dozen IRS doesn't want you to do this. Yeah, there's some tax advantages. There are some bad actors in our industry, unfortunately. And there's no self governing bodies to regulate this, by the way, right. Because why this has been a big this has been a tool has been utilized by big companies for a long time. And typically, the IRS isn't going to go knock on Microsoft's door and go, Hey, are you doing this right? But they will knock on the door down the guy that does service agreements for his heating company that signs a three year service agreement, and we can show him how Hey, you got a three year liability is booked. You can take some of the portions you just saw. So your service warranty over and move it out of your time. company in drop it over here. And you get tax advantage dollars to honor that for the next three years. And that's efficiencies of business that small the middle market business owners need to understand. You know, sometimes I think small middle market business owners think the deck is stacked against them by bigger competitors. And the reason why is because the way they structure internally that they don't, they don't even know about, and unfortunately, they're not using the CPA down the road that may have one or two partners or worse, a sole proprietor as a CPA, one one man operation. Now these companies are using 250,000 employees. They have no problem having our clients on the Capitol. They have more employees than the IRS. You know, boy, you hired the lawyer. I mean, you're spending 106 figures a year just on your CPA work. Yeah, yeah, those are big companies. Smaller middle market companies will not want you do you want me to sniff by Deloitte to do your secret their tax returns, so they're not getting that kind of advice. where, you know, there are hurdles dealing with the smaller? You know, a lot of our CPAs we talked to they're still trying to figure out what the 2017 format for business owners there's what what, what what entertainments deductible and what's not, you know that's conversation they're still trying to figure out so they just don't have the resources available to them I could await does so we try to read that we try to be that resource for them and again I think it's critical for all business owners to understand these tools are out there. I know it is past the stimulus package today It sounds like you know, I don't want business owners taking on more debt even though they might be interest friendly loans and all this other stuff out there. But But you know, our here's what we hear from our clients, Nick. Our clients bottom line sleep a lot better at night knowing they've been using our program for the last several years, and they've piled up a pile of tax advantaged reserves, either through you know, having their financial advisor measure reserves for artists simply put in the money market Count, let's stare at it. There it is steady sleep a lot better at night, knowing that now we're starting to have claims, right? We're hearing claims about, hey, I want to take I want to help you, you know, as crazy as most of our small employers, they want to continue paying for their employees because we're worried about they won't be able to get them back. Yeah, they have good continuity with their employees, they trained them, Well, why do they want to send them out to the they don't want them to go work for Amazon or what they may never get them back.

Nick
Um, you know, so that's, that's, that's the whole point of this particular recording was to have that discussion to let to let the insurance professionals that are watching this and understand that there is this unique vehicle that exists and unfortunately, this is not a train the insurance industry is going to step in front of. So we have to we have to use the tools that we have at our disposal. And so we live in crazy times. And we're going to I will Want to continue this discussion, I want to be able to educate and educate myself but also the audience as well on this particular vehicle. So I'd like to have both of you back to get more into the nitty gritty of it on how these things work and how you get them set up and all of those things. But I think most importantly, I just wanted to share the message with the audience that these things exist. And for the business owner that does not ever want to go through this again, we may have something for you for that. So because of that, I wanted to have both both you van and clay on. And I think we'll wrap it up there.

Van
We appreciate your time, Nick, and thank you for the opportunity to get our message out. The other thing I would just tell you that we have a lot of training videos we have because this this, this is going to require somebody to think you know about these are one of these tools you have to work on your business, not in your business to understand it and of course we want to make sure our clients understand When these things start and why and in the workforce, but no, we do appreciate your time and, and, you know, I'm telling our clients right now Hey man, you guys will get through this, this is a lifeline, you don't have a lot of mother or your competitors don't won't have. So if they take a step back, you can take a step forward, and that sometimes will give you the best advantage and especially in the downturns when you're coming up out of the trough. And we were witness to that. So yeah, again, appreciate your time, as well. Nick, thank you. Thanks,

Clay
Nick. I will tell you stay safe.

Van
Yeah, you to be healthy.

Clay
You as well.

Nick
Okay, to everyone that's listening. in the show notes. I'll have links to everybody, including the training videos. So clay van, thanks so much.

Clay
Sounds great. Thank you. Thanks.