E27: Partnering with Small Businesses for Mutual Success. A Conversation with Sofya Pogreb, COO of Next Insurance

Small business has been an underserved area of insurance. Compared to larger commercial accounts, small businesses generally have low premiums and above normal back-office activity (think: certificates of insurance). Those who have side hustles are even more underserved as until recently, they were automatically grouped into the “small business” category, even though they have a significantly different business model and risk profile. Technology has finally arrived that will allow for this segment to be appropriately served.

In this episode, Nick discussed this topic with Sofya Pogreb, COO of Next Insurance. Next is a full-stack, multi-line small business insurance provider. Next is rethinking the engagement of small businesses with their insurance provider, preferring to treat the relationship as a partnership in which Next looks not only to insure but to be a trusted resource for these companies to grow.

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Connect:
Sofya Pogreb (LinkedIn) – https://www.linkedin.com/in/sofya-pogreb-8876b7/ 
Next Insurance (Homepage) – https://www.nextinsurance.com/ 

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Transcript

Nick
And we're live! We're back! The Coverager Podcast. It's...east coast...it's a late Thursday evening, or afternoon, everything sort of blending together in this summer, and I still have my COVID hair, but, I already scheduled to lose it. So that's coming. I should be nice and clean for the next podcast. And, of course, we're going to be talking about insurance innovation. I have Sofya Pogreb of Next Insurance on...Sofya...welcome.

Sofya P
Thank you honor to be here. I've got COVID hair going on as well. So we're good.

Nick
Something about the COVID hair, we're going to you see you occasionally see photos of like high school yearbooks with hair are going back to the 70s. This is going to be encapsulated in time. Remember 2020 look at the hair. Oh my god. It's going to be fantastic.

Sofya P
If that's the worst thing we walk away with from this. I think we've done well.

Nick
Yes, very true. Very true. So we're going to talk about Next insurance. So I kick all of these off Sofya, with an opportunity for an elevator pitch. Who are you? What do you do? And what can you tell us about Next Insurance?

Sofya P
Yes. So I'm Sofya Pogreb. Hi, everyone. I'm Chief Operating Officer at Next Insurance. And we are all about small commercial insurance. Insurance for entrepreneurs and their businesses. Our goal in life is to be the one stop shop for small business owners looking for property and casualty coverage. We want to be there when they come to us whether that's on a you know No 11pm on a Sunday, or at 2pm on a Thursday afternoon, and we want to provide them with all of the coverage that they need in 10 minutes or less, at an affordable rate and with phenomenal service. We are very passionate about entrepreneurship and small businesses, we feel it's been an underserved segment in the insurance industry and beyond. And we really want these folks to be successful. And we want to have a hand a helping hand in that. We've been around for a little bit over four years, I've been with the company for three and a half. And I lead several of our functions, namely our insurance team that figures out what products we should be selling to customers and how to price them, our operations function, data and also our agency business.

Nick
Fantastic. So you brought up the small business and the entrepreneurial aspect of small business...completely underserved. Right. And I think the some of the legacy is the industry but also, some other startups have also recognized that as well. So in a way if you can discuss that part of what, what separates Next, like your view of that market and how you wish to sort of attack it that might be a little bit different than how a legacy carrier or another startup might think of helping or assisting entrepreneurs.

Sofya P
Great question. I would love to hear your thoughts on this. But we believe we're quite different from everybody out there serving small businesses in a couple of ways. One on the product scope front, if you look at Insurtech for small business, few if any players are multi product players. There are quite a few startups out there focusing on a specific product, whether that's GL or workers comp or D&O. We offer four lines of business today, general liability, professional liability, commercial, auto and workers comp. And they're in the process of adding more. So again, that one stop shop vision, which is really the crux of what we want to become, we think is quite unique to us. For good reason, right? It's a lot of work to offer top quality products across such a broad range of lines of business. I think that's one piece that makes us unique. The other piece is our full stack model. The fact that we do have the entirety of the process starting with distribution and customer acquisition, through owning the product and the pricing and the coverage, to, you know, the policy management, the binding, the servicing, is completely in house to claims which the majority of is in house for us as well. That is quite unique and unusual, particularly in the startup world. So we don't really see any direct competition in Insurtech. But I would love to hear your perspective on this as well.

Nick
Well, I think from I think it's a very underserved market, because traditionally in the past, you know, let's talk about traditionals before any startups. Traditional business models make it difficult to serve small businesses because often the premiums wouldn't justify it. Right, you know, and so it was a lot of work to find the business. It was a lot of work to place the business, then it became a lot of work to service the business. And so you see, it's, it's coincidental I was just watching a, producing video, like how to be a better producer. And one of the one of the criteria for the agency is increase your minimum premium. Right? Like, just stop working on stuff that you just can't make any money on. So it's teed up nicely, right? For a more tech oriented approach, where it's digital. You can have a lot of tech oriented software and tools like chat bots and other things that can do a lot of heavy lifting for the servicing part becomes a lot of the common questions I need certificate of insurance, I need to change an address, stuff like that, that in the past, there was a human being that was doing that. So it was literally hours of human time. Yeah, costly time to do that. So it seems like the there's a new nice convergence of need, where we have a lot more entrepreneurship going on a lot more small businesses starting, dovetailing nicely with a digital environment where it's like finally, you know, we can, we can find you, and we can service you better. I think what is particularly unique about yours is the multi line approach. It would it seems kind of counterintuitive to do all of those things, and then force the small business to go get their auto somewhere else. You know, they the I'm a big fan of bundling.

Sofya P
As we save time, that is a win win, right? And oh, yeah, he's already in the value chain and more, most importantly for the customer. And when we speak to our customers, they really value the ability to get multiple needs met with the same provider, right ability to go to one portal to get their certificates. They don't want to be making multiple phone calls or multiple visits. They have too much to do. Right, exactly. Right.

Nick
So the challenge has always been in, in the insurance space is that, you know, it gets each each of those aspects have been traditionally very expensive, right? So, customer acquisition is generally very expensive. It's just it's hard to find that business, once it's in the door, your hope, if it's, you know, if it's profitable, kind of alleviate some of the issues but again, the certificates of insurance, especially small businesses, you have a lot of certificate work that you have to do if it's, you know, small businesses that deal with property, you may have to change the lender. So there's, there's paperwork that has generally needed to be done. Like it's like we talked about human intervention usually. So that's expensive. So sort of have, you know kind of kicking it back to you? Let's go to that front end customer acquisition has always traditionally been extremely difficult insurance for, you know, to find customers. So it's been rather expensive to acquire customers. How does Next thing given your digital footprint, your digital DNA, so to speak, how do you think about customer acquisition see, so that the costs don't get out of control and you end up any efficiencies you create in the back end, you lose in the front acquiring the customer? How do you think about that?

Sofya P
Yeah, big area of focus for us. We have We are proud to have an industry leading marketing team, particularly in the performance marketing area. And this will be a repeating topic in our conversation. I'll keep saying we use data and we use technology and marketing is one example. We are extremely quantitative about how we market and we are constantly optimizing. We are multi channel, we market through the online channel starting with search engine marketing, you know, Facebook, YouTube, we get a lot of organic traffic and there's constant optimization and measurement going on. It is very much a science for us. And we also do a lot of optimization on a class of business by class of business level. Yeah, okay, because the marketing approach, whether that's the channel mix, or the look and feel or the keywords that works for a plumber may not work for a photographer, similarly to how the coverage is different. We also optimize the marketing. We've made tremendous progress over time in bringing down acquisition costs, as we've gotten better getting to know our customers and what works for them and what resonates with them. More Recently, we're also making a bigger investment in brand marketing, with our TV campaigns with our built by business campaign, which I'm sure we'll have an opportunity to talk about. So we are now supplementing a culture and history of performance marketing with more above the line, brand oriented marketing that we're hoping will help us build more awareness and drive more and more organic and referral traffic over time.

Nick
So, before we tackle that part, let's go to the the digital and the use of data. I'm assuming you are using like Facebook, Instagram type of Google AdWords

Sofya P
Correct.

Nick
Do you do anything at a finer segmented level anything that's even more finely tuned finally specific to finding those customers?

Sofya P
Each of these channels is very finely tuned. We have keywords and campaigns for, you know, accountants and real estate agents and plumbers. We go again to that level, right? We have an effort for, you know, general liability for plumbers and one for professional liability for accountants, because we find that getting that granular is what allows us to squeeze out the expenses. Yeah, right and bring down the acquisition costs.

Nick
I'm curious, you don't have to talk about Next's results. I'm just thinking of the, the platforms in general, the Facebooks, the Instagrams, the Google AdWords. Have you have they met expectations? I'm finding a mixed bag but that could be just because, you know, a, the folks that are marketing in those may or may not know what to do, or how to optimize those. Have they met your expectations?

Sofya P
I think you make a good point. These are not user friendly to an extent where, you know, a lay person can do this right? successful, right? I think these platforms require a lot of expertise still, to do a great job. We partner very closely with each of these channels. Be that Google or Facebook or YouTube? And I will say, yes, they have met our expectations. These are very powerful tool sets. And someone that knows what to do with them, I think, can have a lot of success.

Nick
Yeah. So you're essentially saying if you have data scientists, you can take advantage of it. It's sort of what I see. You know, I think the folks that they I think a lot of those platforms want to make it seem like oh, yeah, it's easy. You can finally cut the data, but I think it's much more complex than that. That's it. I think that a scientific approach has to be done. You know, you know, you're initially I think a lot of folks that have done Facebook, you know, throw 100 bucks at it and said, Well, yeah, that's not much of a sample size.

Sofya P
It's gotten much more competitive over time. I would, I would say, and we see everybody doing this. All of the competitors legacy and Insurtech alike, are using these channels. Very few are using them well.

Nick
yeah. Yeah. So that's customer acquisition. Let's assume you're successful and business is coming in. Let's talk about the coverages and things like that first. How are the coverages backed?

Sofya P
The great majority of what we write is backed by either State National Insurance Company, the front thing well known from the provider, or our own insurance carrier, called the Next Insurance US company which we are continuing to license and more and more states. Yep. So those are the two books of business that we manage.

Nick
Yep. I'm assuming you got strong reinsurance relationships.

Sofya P
We do. We work very closely with Munich Re, who is also an investor. They've been a great partner to us and having their backing obviously lends additional credibility to what we do.

Nick
Yeah. So, full disclosure. I also have a business relationship with Munich Re, and I concur. I think they're phenomenal business partner in so many different ways. So let's talk about coverages. So, you know, one of the things I found interesting, researching Next was, you went to great pains in your marketing message to talk about, there are differences between electricians and plumbers. We'll just we'll use that one as the example. Traditionally, in small business Those are grouped together. They may have a different SIC code that kind of splits them out, but the coverages are the same, and they may just have a different rate. Talk, talk a little bit about how you think about segmentation of trade, and not just like the hard trades, but you have a whole swath of different trades that you can sort of segment into. Talk about how you think about that and how do your coverages reflect that?

Sofya P
And I'm going to twist your example a little bit, okay, because I think electrician versus plumber, I can get comfortable with having similar coverages. What I have seen again and again, however, is same coverages for an electrician and a photographer, and an accountant. And this is where

Nick
It's true.

Sofya P
You know, I start tearing my COVID hair out, right and I feel for the entrepreneur,

Nick
it makes it so much easier to put it on one policy, I mean,

It does doesn't...it really does. And and so from a distribution perspective, right and an agent doing business perspective, I understand it, right, I just don't have the time to figure out and differentiate between an accountant and a plumber, when these are $800 policies just doesn't, unit economics doesn't work for me. So it totally make sense. And this is where the technology comes in, and the data comes in, right. This is my refrain of technology and data. We believe that with technology and data, you can start thinking about well, you know, the photographer may not need a lot of water damage, water related coverages in their GL, but they do need Inland Marine, which again, will be very different from the contractors, equipment and tools that a plumber will need. Yeah. And we can start slotting in the right endorsements and exclusions into the policy using technology, not manually, right in a way that scales and pricing these things in a way that gives the best possible price to each of these professionals. So our photographer may pay you $200 for a GL and the plumber may pay $900. And in each case, we are finding that we are, you know, often up to 30% more affordable than competition while providing the right coverage to each business owner.

 

Nick

Okay, so I'm thinking through now we all work from home. So it's hard to kind of imagine what this like what this looks like. But imagine we're in an office, how strange that is. So you have a digital DNA with an insurance product, what is the interaction between the insurance professionals in Next and the technology stuff? what's the give and take? Because I can imagine if the if we're talking sort of legacy level insurance professionals. You know, they may they may be more comfortable with like, Well, you know, one size fits all, the tech bring a difference, different viewpoint, but there's only so much so so far you can push the envelope. Can you talk about the interplay in the office? About how those two distinct elements of the business model collaborate with one another?

Sofya P
Yeah, great, great topic, one I'm really passionate about. We've started our insurance product team with folks that could not spell insurance. We and this was controversial. And imagine you working with regulators in that room, for example, right? But we really brought in folks that knew data and analysis and we're passionate about financial services and product design. And it was probably two, two and a half years before we brought in as an employee, our first insurance veteran. We used Perr Knight quite heavily in the beginning to help us bring that expertise. There were some interesting early conversations there as well.

Nick
But they, they strike me as very favorable to a more legacy oriented structure.

Sofya P
They do. We were fortunate to be able to build a relationship where they became patient with us and understood what we were about and we're willing to lend their expertise right and help us really ramp

Nick
Who are these people!!!?

Sofya P
We can talk later. Some great people over there, actually, I'm a big fan. But over time, we've built up the expertise and we started bringing in folks with more insurance experience. What I have found is that there's a there's the right balance that I think we found on that team of, you know, smart, analytical, challenges industry standards and assumptions and smart, analytical with many years of insurance expertise, and it's the combination that has proved to be really, really powerful. And we continue to balance things I would say on that team. We probably have 30% insurance vets, 70% non insurance folks, and that's working well for us. Technology comes in here as well. There's close interaction between our insurance product folks and our technical product folks, and the engineering team. These three teams are working constantly in concert to build and optimize our products. We have also made a humongous investment in proprietary platforms that actually allow our insurance product managers to build, configure and optimize the insurance product coverages. So this allows us to be incredibly nimble and fast moving with our coverages and pricing, where if we find that we are missing a key endorsement for a photographer, if that endorsement was filed and approved by the DOI, it takes us a couple of hours to add that in, which I think is unparalleled in the industry and actually has caused us some challenges with our agents, partners, in certain cases, because they're not used to the product coverage is evolving that quickly. But really, it's again, it's technology and analytics and the right mix of talent profiles. What we found has worked for us.

Nick
I think the key word you said was balance. I think that's I was, as you were talking I was sort of thinking of some potential metaphors and I, I think where the insurance professionals come in handy are to sort of lay out the boundaries, right like you things you shouldn't need to experiment on because they know ahead of time like it. It's it's illegal, right? Or, you know, that's been tried before. Yes. But you need that balance of like, Well, why are we doing it this way? You know,

Sofya P
I think it's also not repeating other people's mistakes. Right. We'll have an idea. And one of the folks on the team will say, Yep, that's been tried, and here's why it didn't work. And in some cases, we'll say, okay, we can do it differently. Or maybe we say makes sense. Bad idea. Let's move on. Yeah, very helpful set of experiences.

Nick
Absolutely. In my day to day job. We, I remember, we had like, a good discussion about coinsurance in a product and you know why it's why it's there. Why is coinsurance there? And it's like a history lesson is very needed. But if done, right, you don't need coinsurance, if done right. Like there's a specific reason why it's there. And you can eliminate that. And it is striking the balance between having being a being imaginative, curious, why is this here? What if? What if? What if we did this? What if we did that? With a set of boundaries, just like you said, We don't need to experiment with that it's tried didn't work or it's illegal. Like, you know, you can't do that. And, and so I like I like how you structured that I'm amazed at how long you went without an insurance professional. So salute to Perr & Knight for being able to collaborate with you, so you didn't need that.

Sofya P
So, you didn't ask me about this, but I think they know where this balance is really important is compliance, regulatory compliance. Where again, we started without industry expertise in house, but Over time, we've built what I think is a super strong product compliance function with great DOI relationships. And I think of it as a secret sauce for us, the speed at which we're able to move a product filing forward. And the number of filings we're managing in house, and the amendments that we're getting done...huge enabler for us and again, enables us to deliver I think very strong product to the customer ultimately.

Nick
Yeah, I, I almost think the DOIs get a bad name and, or bad rap. And I think part of that is legacy issues. You know, and I've been in the industry for a very long time and I think there's just over decades, there's just been this would appear to be a conflict. And who knows what the chicken and egg you know who started this conflict In how it kind of manifested itself. But I think that's a very interesting part of a technology team coming in is you don't know that there's a conflict there, and all you want to do is just get stuff done. And so your natural instinct is to go make peace and have a coffee and have a conversation. And they're a stakeholder that's part of the collaboration. Whereas I feel like for legacy folks, it's they're a point of contention, potentially a point of conflict, and don't give them the answer to any question they didn't ask. Whereas you're more trying to be collaborative. And I almost think as I get more into this and have these conversations, it seems like the DOIs are actually not what they were made out to be that it's, they have a job to do as well. And I almost feel like that that the digital DNA companies because they're looking to collaborate, just get more stuff done, because it's they they make it easier for the regulator to do their job.

Sofya P
I agree. And I've seen this in other areas prior to coming to insurance, I was in the debt collection business, which is another, you know, highly regulated, not traditionally customer friendly business, as you can imagine. And I saw the same dynamic, frankly there, if you really collaborate with the regulator, if you bring your ideas and explain why these ideas are meant to benefit the consumer, or small business that they're there to protect leads to some very constructive conversations. Yeah.

Nick
It's great to hear honestly, part of, you know, in any sort of deep discussion about Insurtech and what it means for disruption, the card I can always pull out of my back pocket is like, yeah, that's fantastic plan, but the regulator is going to stop you. So it's kind of good that I can't you know, might not be able to use that card and that the regulators are, are more much more amenable. I think they're just trying to protect the consumer.

Sofya P
Yes, that's a card we don't allow at Next insurance. The regulator won't let me, the reinsurer won't let me. We say if you build your case, if you prove it's the right thing to do, and it's financially sound it's a win win win.

Nick
Yeah, I like that a lot. So we we focused on small business, but I see no reason why your product would have that sort of limitation. Are your long term plans, one to help small businesses grow to midsize and big businesses, but to also maybe, you know, for the small businesses that didn't jump on to next catch them as they become midsize and big businesses as well.

Sofya P
That is the plan. I couldn't have said it better myself. As you know, there's 27/28 million small businesses out there. The majority of them are very small. And we tend to forget that. So I think today, the micro businesses, the, you know, 2/3/4 employee businesses we're serving are the majority of the landscape. Yeah, we absolutely want to serve larger businesses as well. These businesses tend to have more multifaceted, more complex coverage needs. And part of what we want to do is build out our product portfolio to be able to serve those businesses as well as we can serve the smaller ones on the spectrum. That is our plan.

Nick
I thought it all myself just seemed natural to me.

Sofya P
You know what you're talking about what can I say? I think with the larger businesses, I often get questions about what can you really underwrite electronically? Don't you need to go see you the site, don't you need to go, you know, examine the project.

Nick
There are ways.

Sofya P
I think so I think there are ways I think at the very far end of the spectrum where you are, you know, ensuring an industrial complex. I think more scrutiny is probably needed. But we are very far away from that. That's the other spectrum.

Nick
Right. So how many how many businesses twenty...? Would you say 28? million? Correct. Okay. 28 million. There's probably in the thousands that might fit that category. I think everything in between, I think between all of the insurtechs that do that have awesome aerial and digital imagery, satellite imagery, the Street View and a whole bunch of Insurtechs where you can get, you know, third party data on to those that says That I would say no. Like, I, I'm one that's underwriting without all of that, you know, today it's it. There's so much that can be done digitally.

Sofya P
I think that's right. I also think that by the time we get to that few thousand, frankly, and we've got the rest of the market addressed, I'm sure the tool sets will be even more advanced than there are today. Yep. We have about 100,000 active customers today a little bit more than that. So we've got a small, small portion of that 28 million. And there's so much room for growth and to do more better for this population. You know, there's no, we're not constrained by the market opportunity at all.

Nick
Addressable markets. Huge. I can, I can definitely see that. We talked about the front end customer acquisition, we talked about coverage and capacity. Now let's finish off the three legged stool with back office, in the technology around that. I couldn't help but notice in your website, LinkedIn and other marketing messages, how much you take pride in the hundreds of thousands of certificates of insurance. As someone that's been in the business for a very long time, I can tell you it's a gigantic pain in the butt to issue them to manage them. Who even knows what they mean? Like there's always like that insurance class like, gosh, given certificates of insurance, don't mean what you think they mean. Why can you talk about the value add, you know, what, how do you do it, but also talk about, you know, why, why it's so important to you that you you're able to kind of execute on that.

Sofya P
So we've rethought the certificate of insurance from the ground up. We thought about the pain points for our customers, which is I need these things to get them, I need to call my agent, it takes time. In the meantime, somebody else may get the book. So our certificates are instant. Our customers can generate them from our customer portal, they can call us and ask, we now have a virtual agent that can help you over the phone, get a certificate out. There's no paperwork, right? Everything's electronic. So our customers tell us they love this. They use the functionality heavily. And we know it's helping them get work and get their business to grow further, which is ultimately the whole. We've also thought about the recipient of the certificate. And we've talked to these recipients. They say, I have to put the paperwork somewhere. I've got these PDFs stored all over the place. I don't know what the certificate means. Does it mean that there was insurance in place when the piece of paper was printed? What about now is there still an transom, please. So without a certificate, the recipient can click on a link and see if insurance is active now.

Nick
And that's even, even after even after the request even after they first get it, it's not they don't have to keep requesting it.

Sofya P
Correct? That's correct. So it's all about resolving pain points for people in the value chain for us. And we know that our customers appreciate this functionality. use it a lot. As you've mentioned, hundreds of thousands of these have been shared. Most of it goes to the recipient by email, right? Nothing's being printed. Nothing's being mailed. There's no wait time. Customers will do this while on project site talking to their potential employer. Right?

Nick
Mobile...on phone?

Sofya P
On the majority of these are done through the fo eautifully majority of our policies purchased from mobile devices. Before I do this while while standing in line at the Trader Joe's. I have to say we've had some people do it while driving, which we heavily discourage. But it's that easy.

Nick
Yeah, that's fantastic. Okay, so I want to finish off this particular conversation because this was really interesting. You recently hired Spencer Hanson of Spotify fame as your creative director. Now...insurance companies don't have creative directors. That's the marketing realm. Right. So it's a what, what's going on there like this? This is what's the interesting aspect that the that Next is doing by hiring a creative director, especially someone who has had success very recently, big success with Spotify.

Sofya P
Yeah. Again we were thinking about revolutionising and disrupting, which we believe we've done on a number of fronts, but not in how we thought about our brand yet. So this is what we are asking Spencer to do and what he has started to do. It's really disrupting how an insurance brand can be built and how it's perceived by our customers. And Spencer, as you mentioned, is a well known name in the creative industry. He came in and said, you know, let's do this differently. Let's not follow the "we're there when you need us" formula. Let's really emphasize the fact that we are 100% focused on serving small businesses and small businesses and not used to having anybody 100% focused on them. Right there. They're used to being the afterthought and Spencer really is helping turn the way we think about our brand on its head with the built by business campaign where we're putting the business first. It's not about the insurance company, it's about the businesses were there to support and to grow. He is building a creative agency for us in house so we can turn this into another competitive advantage and really differentiate through all brands, which we haven't done so far.

Nick
Yeah. So that's, that's interesting, because you're so it's easy to say but difficult to execute on. Right. So, traditionally, insurance has been very transactional based. And I would say for the vast majority of insurance transactions, the insurance company and the insurance buyer don't perceive each other as partners in this. You You are explicitly by hiring and creative director in your company, and talking about small businesses in a particular way. You're trying, you're almost like changing the nature of the insurance purchase, right? Like you're, you're looking to establish yourself as a partner with them as they grow. So I'm assuming also as creative director, there's going to be a whole outlay of I'll call it content, but you know, stuff beyond content where you're going to be looking to help the business, the businesses themselves, not just insurance, not just the risk management, but we're going to, we're going to help you find ways to grow your revenue, be more profitable, etc, etc, etc. Am I on the right track there?

Sofya P
Absolutely. We should hire you into our marketing team that clearly

Nick
<blushing>

Sofya P
I'm not being you know, I'm being serious, I'll talk to our CMO. But yes, what you said You most recently when COVID came in March, we started thinking about how do we help the businesses? Yeah, we, and I'm being completely honest, we didn't think about how do we shore up our revenue? Or how do we lower our churn? We've thought about how do we help our customers. And we've decided to do this in two ways. One, when your partner is on one partner is in financial trouble. The other partner looks to help. We said, here's a little bit of premium back. We think that at this time, our loss exposure is probably lower, you're not driving as much, you're not working as much. Here's some premium back and we were one of the first in the industry to do this. Secondly, as we talked to customers, what we kept hearing is "I have no work", "my projects have been canceled", "my weddings have been canceled", "I need to find jobs". And this is where Spencer came in and said maybe we can create some jobs instead of using our marketing budget to get a large ad agency to produce some ads for us. Let's shoot it ourselves from home, over zoom. And let's make our customers our stars in this ad, which is what we've done. Yeah, we've created jobs for people, which is the help that they appreciate the most. Right? People said, I don't need charity. Help me find work. And for us as an insurance company to help create work for our customers, I just know I was crying when we were watching the ad. I find it so emotionally rewarding. So yes, it is about partnership and enabling and helping businesses grow and they reward us with referrals and great reviews and loyalty.

Nick
Yeah, I'm going to paraphrase one of my favorite TV shows Mad Men. You don't need a big business. You don't need to get big business customers. You're gonna To make your customers big business, right? I love that. I love that that's, that becomes true partnership. Because it's so easy in this business to be to worship, the premium dollars and just say, Wow, look at the size of the premium, upscale. But it's another story to deliver them when you're starting from a smaller base and say, Don't worry, we're in this together. We'll help you get there. That's a different marketing message. I love it. So awesome. Sofya, thank you so much. Appreciate it. For everyone that's listening, I will have all in the show notes. I will have all of the contact links to Sofia. Next things that we talked about in this particular podcast. I need to remember not to say this at the beat at the end but at the beginning but we're still in a pandemic. So it's not that big a deal. Just put on a mask. Respect. Other people still wash your hands. That's good to do anyways, so please be safe everybody that's listening. Please subscribe and for Sofya from Next Insurance. Thank you so much.

Sofya P
Thank you. This was fun.

Nick
Appreciate it.

Sofya P
Stay safe and healthy!

Transcribed by https://otter.ai